Dishonest Dialogue

The call to “dialogue” by the liberal Orthodox, particularly those that try to force Orthodoxy theology into the ideological framework of identity politics (feminism and homosexualism primarily) is fundamentally dishonest writes Fr. Lawrence Farley below. It’s not a call to dialogue at all but an attempt to force the Orthodox Church to capitulate to the dominant liberal culture. Fr. Lawrence writes, “Those inviting us to dialogue are not interested in ‘discerning God’s hand in contemporary life’, but simply in changing our minds.”

A point that Fr. Lawrence doesn’t mention is that the Christian communions that have adopted the positions that the liberal Orthodox want us to “dialogue” about are dying. Once a Christian communion becomes feminized it inevitably becomes homosexualized, and once it becomes homosexualized it becomes feminized. The pathologies work hand in hand and the result is decline and death. There is no exception to this rule.

Why don’t they become Episcopalian instead?

Source: No Other Foundation. Courtesy of Ancient Faith Ministries.

By Fr. Lawrence Farley

The term “dialogue” (along with its synonyms, “conversation” and “discussion” and “engagement”) seems to have taken its place alongside the proverbial terms “motherhood”, “apple pie”, and “the flag” as sacred and untouchable. It used to be that no one in their right mind would speak against this Trinity of American values, and now no one is allowed to suggest that anything bearing the sacred word “dialogue” should be viewed with suspicion. A commitment to dialogue is considered an essential part of civilization, and a sign of one’s tolerance, reasonableness, and open-mindedness. Anyone lacking a sufficient commitment to these modern virtues (the new Trinity of American values) is a fitting candidate for denunciation and insult. If you think this last sentiment is too strong, you probably do not own a computer or go online very much.

One could almost formulate a spiritual law that any site or online contribution which contains the D-word or its synonyms is pushing the same basic agenda. Take for example the site, “Orthodoxy in Dialogue” (with D-word prominently displayed) or the site “Public Orthodoxy” (which says that it “seeks to promote conversation by providing a forum for diverse perspectives on contemporary issues related to Orthodox Christianity”).  Like other liberal sites these are dedicated to the destruction of traditional Orthodox belief and praxis. Obviously no site hoping to gain traction among fellow-Orthodox will advertise this agenda and goal. Like all deconstructionist movements, other softer terms must be found—usually using multi-syllabic words, which is almost always a bad sign.

In the same way the Orthodox deconstructionists usually fudge or hide their actual agenda. I have seen this at work for quite a while. Take for example the work of the late and brilliant feminist Elizabeth Behr-Sigel. Like other Orthodox feminists of her vintage, she rarely came out and declared that her goal was the ordination of women priests. No. She was just asking questions, having a dialogue, promoting a conversation about a certain topic, engaging the modern world. In a paper given in 1976 entitled, “The Meaning of the Participation of Women in the Life of the Church” she ended with the plaintive cry, “[These] are questions on which some of us have already reflected deeply, while others are dimly aware of them, and they are questions which we Orthodox women gathered here wish to put before the Church, praying that the Spirit will guide her and will guide us in the right way. In the words of the psalmist we say, ‘Show us the way we must take!’” What humility and openness! She is not pushing towards a predetermined goal, only trying to discern the right way forward. Or consider her essay, “The Place of Women in the Church”: she ends her essay with the words, “On a problem like the ordination of women, might we not imagine different ‘helpful things’ that the local Churches could determine for themselves?…Would not such a pluralism of discipline [wherein some Orthodox churches ordained women and others did not] be compatible with the unity of faith and ecclesial communion?” She is just asking a question, after all, asking us to “imagine” certain things, not promoting an agenda.

From all this one might conclude that for Ms. Behr-Sigel the question was an open one. It is not so. She was as sure of her conviction that women should be ordained priests as I am sure (and as St. Paul was sure) that women should not. This is apparent from the rest of her writing, such as the place in the same essay in which she denounced St. Paul’s counsel in 1 Timothy 2 as “rabbinical exegesis”, and the Church’s “patriarchal” conceptions as “infecting Christian thinking”. The passages in St. Paul that meet with her approval (such as Galatians 3:28) she applauds (with exclamation marks) as “the Spirit clearing a new path through the thick forest of human prejudices!” Clearly Behr-Sigel had already made up her mind as to “the way we must take”, her disingenuous tentativeness notwithstanding. The posture of tentative questioning was not sincere or honest, nor was the proffered dialogue genuine. In this dialogue, all the retreat and reconsideration was to flow one way. Those holding to the historic Orthodox position would retreat from it, while those holding to the new reconstructed position would not retreat. The deconstructionists had no doubt of the truth of their convictions; the only question was how to advance their agenda. One is reminded of the aphorism of JFK: “You cannot negotiate with those who say ‘What’s mine is mine and what’s yours is negotiable’”. As far as those committed to the reconstructed and revised order are concerned, their own convictions are not negotiable. It is the traditional Orthodox that are being invited to negotiate and to be willing to retreat from their positions.

One detects a certain common vocabulary in those inviting the retreat. Certain buzz-words recur: they speak of “patriarchy”, “sexism”, of the necessity of a “creative reimagining”. They speak (in the multi-syllabic terms mentioned above) of “an awareness of the multifaceted nature of truth that continues to be discovered and implemented over time through a process of prayer, creative reflection, and debate”, of “a pluralistic era which presents Christianity with new and unique challenges”, and attempt to “discern God’s hand in contemporary life”—as if the authors were not already sure of where God’s hand in contemporary life was to be found and were still trying to “discern” it. When one reduces the multi-syllabic rhetoric to words that a child could understand it translates as: “You must change your teaching to conform to ours. Our modern secular culture no longer accepts your views so you must change them to fit in with that secular culture”.

All this dialogue and open-mindedness to the secular values at odds with Orthodoxy is comparatively new. The Fathers did not open such dialogues with pagans or heretics. They did engage “the pluralistic era which presented them with new and unique challenges” of course, and the people who were in the forefront of this engagement are known by the name “the Apologists”. The Church did not withdraw from the secular society into a safe and holy huddle with the drawbridge pulled up behind them, but met the new and unique challenges head on, trying to convince and convert the world. They talked to pagans and even acknowledged that the pagans had got some things right. These things they were happy to claim as their own (one author called the process “plundering Egypt”). But the coincidence of agreement in some areas between Christian and pagan or between Christian and heretic did not make the Church open to learning from pagans or heretics. The Church was confident that (in the words of our contemporary Orthodox Liturgy) it had “found the true faith”, so that its task was to correct the world, not learn from it.   When Justin Martyr used the term “dialogue” (such as his “Dialogue with Trypho the Jew”) he was not investigating to see what he could learn from Judaism, but trying to convert his Jewish friend to Christianity. For Justin and for the Fathers generally, “dialogue” involved not openness to changing or abandoning one’s convictions, but civil and respectful debate in an attempt to help someone else change theirs.

The essential dishonesty of the contemporary dialogues can be seen in their choice of dialogue partners. The deconstructionists are happy to dialogue with the LGBQT community, and with feminists keen to denounce patriarchy and to ordain women. I am not aware of any enthusiasm for dialogue with, say, White Supremacists. That is because our liberal friends agree with the agendas of the gay and feminist communities and (quite properly) abhor that of the White Supremacists. I suggest that this consistent choice of dialogue partners reveals that the true goal of the liberal Orthodox proffering dialogue is not real give and take, but simple capitulation on the part of the conservatives. And ask yourself: has our decades-long dialogue with the liberal Protestant WCC resulted in a substantial shift of the member churches towards Orthodoxy or slowed their accelerating drift into greater theological liberalism? Has the dialogue with the feminists resulted in the reduction of any of their cherished anti-patriarchal convictions or in a greater appreciation of the Church’s traditional praxis? Not a bit, which proves the wisdom of JFK aphorism quoted above. Those inviting us to dialogue are not interested in “discerning God’s hand in contemporary life”, but simply in changing our minds. That is quite acceptable; I am happy to enter into civil debate with anyone. But honesty should compel us to make our true intentions and goals known.

Fr. Lawrence serves as pastor of St. Herman’s Orthodox Church in Langley, BC. He is also author of the Orthodox Bible Companion Series along with a number of other publications. Fr. Farley blogs at No Other Foundation.


  1. Ronda Wintheiser says

    Some have?

    Maria McDowell apparently finally gave up trying to argue the Orthodox Church to come her way. She’s now an Episcopalian priest and I believe quite married as well. To a woman, of course.

    She actually visited the parish I attend now a couple of years ago. I recognized her from Facebook. One of our parishioners is friends with her on Facebook and shares her political and theological opinions; I believe she came to our parish for that reason. But she was Episcopal by then.

    • It is interesting to observe that virtually the same folks who are pushing for “dialogue” also support women deacons (and some want women priests), also despise conservative Orthodox priests — who rightly teach the Orthodox Church theology and Scriptural truth — calling them “fundamentalist homophobes”, “women hating misogynists”, and comparing them to ISIS, also believe that “homosexuality is not a sin,” believe in a “gender spectrum” (not man and woman anymore), and many of them are pushing for same-sex couples to be “included into the sacramental life of the Church.”

      One of the leaders of this rebellion against God and nature is a defrocked priest (Giacomo Peter J. Sanfilippo) who self-identifies as “gay” and uses the term “same-sex love” and “conjugal love” when talking about “normal love” between homosexuals to confuse the young and teach insanity as normative. Sadly he is supported and celebrated by many other pro-LGBT activists, including some priests and bishops (according to his own boasts.)

      2 Peter 2 comes to mind:

      2 But there were also false prophets among the people, even as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Lord who bought them, and bring on themselves swift destruction. 2 And many will follow their destructive ways, because of whom the way of truth will be blasphemed. 3 By covetousness they will exploit you with deceptive words; for a long time their judgment has not been idle, and their destruction does not slumber. (2 Peter 2)

      18 For when they speak great swelling words of emptiness, they allure through the lusts of the flesh, through lewdness, the ones who have actually escaped from those who live in error. 19 While they promise them liberty, they themselves are slaves of corruption; for by whom a person is overcome, by him also he is brought into bondage.

      20 For if, after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the latter end is worse for them than the beginning. 21 For it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered to them. 22 But it has happened to them according to the true proverb: “A dog returns to his own vomit,” and, “a sow, having washed, to her wallowing in the mire.” (2 Peter 2)

    • Dave E. Sanders says

      Years ago, when I was living in Miami, I met an Orthodox female convert after the Liturgy who was on her way to an Orthodox convent to become a nun. She told me her story of how she was a feminist who was planning to become an Episcopal “priestess.” I cannot recall the entire story but I remember vividly one thing she said. On a piece of paper an Orthodox friend of hers drew the globus cruciger (a cross atop a circle), the symbol of Christ’s dominion over the world, also used by Christian monarchs. Then her friend inverted the symbol which showed the world over the cross, which happened to be the gender symbol (Venus) for woman. She told me when she saw that she was horrified and changed her feminist attitude. She converted to Orthodoxy and entered the monastic life. Funny how God speaks in various ways to get His point across.

  2. I see that “feminizing” the Church is not really what’s going on. I think the homosexual/feminist movements are androgynizing it. Certainly there is a movement to empty the Church of its male gender symbolism and the priesthood. But I don’t see the feminine as replacing it–what is likely going on is elimination of gender altogether. The feminist movement is NOT pro-woman–it fundamentally denies female gender and its roles. In every way it’s eliminating the feminine, just as it (along with homosexuality) is eliminating the masculine. “So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them” (Gen 1:27).. God made these gender differences to reflect Himself, but if people are trying to remove gender from humanity, what does this ultimately mean ontologically? Would this lead to changes in Christology (e.g. was Christ really born of a woman to be incarnated in the flesh at all)? Certainly it changes the image of the priest as the representative of Christ the Bridegroom.

    From ancient times, homosexuals have held that marriage between man and woman is a very inferior thing compared to homosexual unions. Homosexuals can get the State to marry them, so why do they further demand that the Church do it, except to subvert some teaching of the Church? So if homosexual unions can be “married” within the Church, then how does this change the imagery of Christ as bridegroom and the Church (female entity) as bride? Would it eliminate the echatological vision of the Marriage Supper of the Lamb altogether? These subverters are presenting issues to the Church piecemeal in order to slowly change it. I think we need to look deeper to see what their ontological end game is and fight them from there.

  3. Desi Erasmus says

    Essays like this are a necessary element of parrying the “sowers of bad seed” warned against in the parable of the wheat and tares. Identifying the “seed species” being sown by these modern servants of the “father of lies” with their scriptural identities would be a useful enhancement to pieces like this, illuminating the understanding of those who have become familiar with the true Word.

    The history of conflict between prophets of Yahweh and the prophets and priests and priestesses of the Canaanite idols and the civil religious apparatus supporting the pantheons of the larger adversaries of Israel (Egypt, Assyria, Babylon, etc.) provides a helpful framework for assessing the arguments and behaviors of the devotees of the modern revival of these idols.

    Whether the climate control zealots (devotees of the Storm Baals), the LGBTqwerty orthodox (devotees of Astarte), Death Angel Margaret Sanger inspired abortion zealots (devotees of Moloch), or enthusiasts for the messianic warfare/welfare state (various flavors of devotees to the many idols in the pantheon of civil religion, particularly the war gods – Ps 20:7), all of these competing religions appeal to one facet or another of fallen humanity. The ability of the prophets of these human-constructed images of the divine to make progress in wresting control of any center of institutional power, whether civil or ecclesiastical is vividly chronicled in the biblical histories, and in the later history of the Christian communions.

    Evidently, Orthodox educational and ecclesiastical institutions have some of the same vulnerabilities as their counterparts in the rest of our polity. How many of their institutions of higher learning have avoided submitting to the regulation of the federal Dept of Education? Has the temptation of access to state-subsidized funding in one form or another (e.g., federal student loan and grant programs) forced open the door to widespread influence within these institutions of representatives of the competing religions? Two references from a non-Orthodox source may helpful in finding escapes from (or at least properly identifying) these threats to cultivating “good soil” for reproduction of the true Word.

    I’m not a great fan of Dr. North, whose rhetorical hero is Martin Luther (as illustrated by the excerpts from the blurbs to the free versions of these references). However, his historical references and assessment of their practical significance of resisting the overreaching policies and proponents of our polytheistic messianic state are worth getting to know.

    Crossed Fingers: How the Liberals Captured the Presbyterian Church (for free PDF-formatted version)
    Crossed Fingers serves as a handbook for the diagnosis and defeat of the same liberal forces that have captured American Christianity. How did they do it? With a vision, with a plan, and with other people’s money. Crossed Fingers shows how they achieved victory in what had been the most theologically conservative large Protestant denomination on earth. It also shows what the conservative Presbyterians could have done, and still have not done, to immunize the Church.

    Political Polytheism: The Myth of Pluralism (for free PDF formatted version)
    In Political Polytheism Dr. Gary North sets forth a challenge to the reigning political philosophy of our day, a philosophy which says that God’s people must remain politically silent, that neutrality is a valid religion, and that the King of history must confine Himself to the home, the church, and the funeral parlor. Everything else belongs to autonomous man, this religion asserts.
    Not so, say Dr. North. Everything belongs to the God of the Bible, and the only way that mankind can build a free society and maintain it is to honor this principle in every area of life. Political Polytheism pulls no punches. It takes on all comers: humanists, Christian philosophers, and historians. Especially historians. Dr. North, himself a trained historian, shows how a conspiracy of silence has joined with another conspiracy-first, to capture the government, and then to rewrite American history.
    Political Polytheism challenges the myth of neutrality, the myth of political pluralism, and the myth of the Constitutional Convention. There has never been a book like it. The book is designed to launch the hottest political debate since 1787. It asks the most controversial political question that can be asked today: If there is no such thing as neutrality, then whose law should rule supreme, God’s or man’s? For two centuries, American Christians have refused even to ask the question, let alone answer it.

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