Bartholomew, Kirill Celebrate Divine Liturgy in Istanbul

Russian Orthodox Patriarch Kirill, right, leads Sunday prayers with Istanbul Ecumenical Patriarch Bartholomew I, left, in a show of unity at the patriarchal church of Aya Yorgi (St. George) in Istanbul, Turkey, Sunday, July 5, 2009. (AP Photo/Ibrahim Usta)

ISTANBUL (ANA-MPA – A. Kourkoulas) Visiting Moscow and All Russia Patriarch Kirill I joined Ecumenical Patriarch Bartholomew for the mass at the Ecumenical Patriarchate in Fanar on Sunday, in what he later described as “the most important event of our visit”.

The new Russian Patriarch further reinforced the message of unity that his visit is designed to promote and referred to the strong historic bonds between the two Churches, in ritual and in the monastic traditions they observed.

“Our common tradition is the steady basis of our joint witness toward the modern world,” Patriarch Kirill added.

“To the conditions in which religion is pushed to the sidelines of social life, when even the meaning of sin itself is eradicated, when traditional moral values are radically revised and on the base of the economy we place the principle of profit, we have an obligation to unite our efforts to defend the rules of the gospel and formulate a universal Orthodox reply to the challenges of the times,” he stressed.

In his reply, Patriarch Bartholomew referred to the important decisions taken by the Fourth PanOrthodox PreConsciliar Conference at Chambesy in Geneva, praising the constructive cooperation and the contribution of the Moscow Patriarchate in the success of this conference, which manage to resolve one of the most thorny problems for the course of the Orthodox Church.

Bartholomew stressed that the administrative organisation of the Orthodox Church into independent Patriarchates and Autocephalous Churches “in no way implies that we constitute Churches and not a Church”.

“The Orthodox Church does not, of course, have a primacy in power but it does not lack a coordinating organ, one that does not impose but expresses the unanimity to the local Churches,” he said, adding that this ministry was “humbly practised by long and holy tradition” by the Patriarchate in Fanar in full compliance with the dictates of Orthodox ecclesiology.

Patriarch Kirill stated that his “peaceful visit” to Fanar was the first of a series of visits to the Orthodox Churches around the world and “a good start for renewing the brotherly relations in Christ of the two great Orthodox Patriarchates of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church of Christ”.

“We must not forget that the Russian Church is linked by special ties to the first in the order of the holy Diptychs Patriarchal Throne of Constantinople. From this we received the enlightenment of the light of faith and the principles of scholarly wisdom, temple-building and agiography, the service and the whole variety of the ecclesiastical structure,” he added.

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July 5, 2009

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John Couretas

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25 responses to “Bartholomew, Kirill Celebrate Divine Liturgy in Istanbul”

George Michalopulos

July 5, 2009

Look at the body language of the two men: I’d say that from the photo Kirill was one happy camper.

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Cynthia Curran

July 5, 2009

Well, profit is apart of all economic systems including the Byzantine Empire. Granted, the Byzantine Empire had a state monopoly on the silk industry. But even the emperor Justinian at least allowed the monks to smuggle in silk warms for a supply of silk rather than in the long run having to go as much thru the Persian Empire. And Justinian was a man that placed wage and price controls after the Plague of 542 since prices and wages were 2 to 3 times normal. Not understanding that Plagues caused labor shortages which caused the prices and wages to rise to a higher levell. The same thing happen during the Black Death in the 1300’s. Prices again 2 to 3 times. Both Patiarchs Krill and Batholomew have an attiude similar to the clergy in the middle ages who wanted to forbid interest.

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George Michalopulos

July 5, 2009

Cynthia, I agree that economics should be left to economists however there is a wise aphorism by John Wesley which probably could solve all economic problems (including greed):

“Make all you can, save all you can, give all you can.”

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Ilya Kharin

July 6, 2009

As to the content of the meeting, among other things Patriarch Kirill imparted the following:

“We spoke today about the new reality, which is shaping up in Turkey: in the summer period about two million our compatriots visit this country; tens of thousands of Russians live in it on a permanent basis; there are many mixed marriages here. That is why there rises a question of pastoral oversight of these people. Turkey is the canonical territory of the Constantinopolitan Patriarchate, and today we found, in my consideration, a common correct approach to solving the issues connected with pastoring Russian and Russian-speaking Orthodox resident in Turkey.” (See http://www.pravoslavie.ru/news/31039.htm, in Russian)

This helps one see why Patriarch Kirill might be a “happy camper”. If things proceed as they do now, the next generation of Orthodox in Turkey may well be overwhelmingly Russian. That also makes conceivable the prospect of a second-/third-generation Russian-Turk becoming the Patriarch of Constantinople. And that is no easy thing to swallow for many.

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George Michalopulos

July 6, 2009

Ilya, I misunderstand. Do you mean why Bartholomew might be unhappy? That’s the way I read the picture. Look at the body language, Bartholomew is downcast, Kirilll completely dominates.

If what you say is true, then a Russian patriarch of Constantinople is definitely in the wings. In reality, it’s just a matter of time given that there are no Greeks under 60 left in Istanbul.

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George Michalopulos

July 6, 2009

Ilya, please disregard my earlier posting. I hadn’t had my morning cup of coffee yet. As I said in an earlier posting, +Kirill quite likely holds all the cards. The massive Russian colony in Turkey is surely another Ace in the hole that he can wait to play in the next decade or so.

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Andrew

July 7, 2009

Ocanews is running a headline that that +Kiril has pointed out that there are more Russians then Greeks in Constantinople and the agreement should be reached on how to serve these Orthodox Christians.

Wow! The Orthodox Community in Constantinople is now majority Russian! If demographic trends continue the same may be true of Greece with Greeks being the minority in their own Country. So much for the Glory of the omogenia.

Lets see the braintrust at 79th street spin this one.

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Dean Calvert

July 7, 2009

Not a problem…I’m writing to Metropolitan Jonah right now to ask him to start a new jurisdiction in Turkey.

This can be the first church granted autocephaly BY the OCA. I’m sure the Russians would be happy to recognize it. After all, if it’s OK for America, why not for Turkey?

Then we can set up one of those episcopal assemblies…of course the EP can chair that.

But with 2 millions Russians a year visiting Turkey, they will need new churches…perhaps the EP will give them some of the empty ones they are guarding.

God really does have a sense of humor, doesn’t He?

Best Regards,
Dean

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George Michalopulos

July 7, 2009

This is all so full of irony that one doesn’t know where to begin. I can’t help but snigger at the Akorns of St Andrew and their hangers-on and all their efforts at the annual Renassaince Fairs that they put on. What are they going to do when the next EP is a Russian? Hey, here’s a thought: Maybe they can relocate the EP to Washington, DC and proclaim it the Fourth Rome. Then they could transfigure their Middle-Ages-themed annual fairs to Star Trek-like conventionas. Instead of being called “Knights of St Andrew,” they can be called “Starfleet Command,” and instead of titles of like “megas logothetes” and “grand skevophylax” they can have titles like “Empath,” “Captain,” and “Bones.”

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George Michalopulos

July 7, 2009

You know what would be especially delicious? If and when the Russian EP is enthroned, he gets the go-ahead to reopen Agia Sophia as an Orthodox Church!

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Andrew

July 7, 2009

VOTE HERE!

Hey folks http://www.thenationalherald.com has an interesting poll on the front of its webpage concerning ethnicity and the Church.

I hope my AOI friends will go to the site and help push the poll in right direction.

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George Michalopulos

July 7, 2009

I was looking for a spot to check off “Are you people nuts?”

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Dean Calvert

July 7, 2009

You didn’t mention the best part…as of right now, 41% said “YES”!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

**********************************************
The Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America launched a new Greek language educational initiative this week. Over the past hundred years throughout the United States, Greek Orthodox parishes were established to serve as centers for both the Orthodox Faith and Greek culture. Should the Archdiocese and the Metropolises make the promotion and preservation of the Greek language a priority EQUAL to that of its religious mission?

Results so far…
41% voted “Yes”
51% voted “No”
8% voted “Maybe”

***********************************************

I say don’t vote…let’s see what the pure, unadulterated numbers are. It might tell us everything we need to know about moving forward with the Greeks (or not).

You couldn’t make this stuff up.

Best Regards
dean

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Andrew

July 7, 2009

Looks like we had an impact

It was 52% YES 41% NO Before I put up the note on AOI

Now its 51% NO and 41% Yes with 8% voting maybe. (Who votes maybe, we could have a Obamakis button for “present” but maybe?)

Way to go AOI readers……. I say vote and make them think twice about putting such surveys up. You know these folks want YES to prevail.

Keep the votes coming in people.

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Chrys

July 7, 2009

This poll provides an valuable insight into the thinking of (presumably) at a least portion of the GOA membership, though, like most internet polls, I would be careful about inferring too much. (It is difficult to see how it will be representative – or remotely scientific.) That said, however, it does not speak well of the Archdiocese (or whoever posted it), that it thought this version of the question was even fit for polling.

To the degree it does reflect the mindset of the membership, it stands as a terrible indictment of current catechesis and adult formation. This, however, is a challenge that can be addressed, provided that one sees it as a problem to begin with.

So far as it reflects the position of the leadership, such a perspective would be more problematic. Such a position, were it ever to be enshrined in some kind policy, would ensure that the archdiocese is permanently defined as provincial. Can anyone imagine the Roman Catholic Church considering the use of its parishes to promote Italian culture – or Western European culture? (Even the Church of England, which seems to have a remarkable elasticity regarding the criteria of faith, would not overtly promote English culture.) Such a perspective would seem to be stepping awfully close to violating the prohibition against philitism. The letters of St. Paul make quite an issue of insisting that one must not elevate or impose any extraneous criteria – in this case Jewish (which could at least point to practices with an actual divine mandate)- in addition to the claims of the faith, not even upon people of potentially problematic cultural backgrounds (ironically, Greeks).

As Dean said, you can’t make this stuff up.

You can, however, make up fun, new slogans. IF true, however – and I pray it is not – one can imagine a popular Orthodox bumper sticker being revised to say: “GOA – confusing the mission since 1921.” (God forgive me.)

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Dean Calvert

July 7, 2009

Chrys,

Re: “GOA – confusing the mission since 1921.”

You get the prize…funniest thing I’ve read all day.

I’ll take 100 of them.

Toooooooooooooooooo funny!!!

Dean

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Fr Gregory

July 7, 2009

Ya know, I read the survey question twice before it finally stuck–how can anyone in his or her right mind (to say nothing of right faith) think that Greek culture and language should be on a par with the Gospel?

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George Michalopulos

July 7, 2009

It’s almost like the New York Times, it’s become a parody of a parody.

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George Michalopulos

July 7, 2009

I don’t know which was more absurd: the question/presupposition or the answers.

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Andrew

July 7, 2009

54% NO 39% YES
Way to go aoi readers!!!

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George Michalopulos

July 8, 2009

Andrew,

I’m afraid that regardless of the vote, the very question itself –and it’s posting on the last major Greek-American daily–means that the GOA/homogeneia crowd has already lost the evangelical war. Moreover, it tarnishes all Orthodox in this way: if it ever got out to the general public, we who are not GOA would be caught flat-footed yet again, having to explain the whole jurisdictional imbroglio. Comical yes, but terrible at the same time.

Besides the fact that the answers were inadequate, the question itself was of the “have you stopped beating your wife variety?” You condemn yourself which ever way you answer. But that’s another story.

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Andrew

July 8, 2009

George,

I am afraid you are in the end correct.

However, this whole little exercise shows The National Herald readership is very small and inconsequential. AOI readers were able to enact a 20% swing on this survey. It does say AOI has more online readers and more dedicated online readers than the National Herald website has.

So lets give a cheer for the informed and engaged community we have here.

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Dean Calvert

July 8, 2009

Re:So lets give a cheer for the informed and engaged community we have here.

Dear Andrew,

You said it. Fr. Hans et al have done a remarkable job attracting some of the most reasoned bloggers in the Orthodox world here (present company excluded). The commentary here is head and shoulders above that found elsewhere on the web.

My hat is off to them…you all are recreating the Church of the First 15 centuries…We many times forget that an engaged and literate laity was a hallmark of the church for many centuries.

Different forum, same result.

Nice job!

Best Regards,
Dean

Reply
+Bartholomew, +Kirill Meet in Istanbul

July 10, 2009

[…] AOI Article on this historic meeting […]

Reply
John Couretas

July 21, 2009

From The National Herald, July 18, 2009:

The Orthodox Church has Only One Priority: Religion

To the Editor:

The results of the July 4th “Question of the Week” about whether the Archdiocese and Metropolises should make the Greek language a priority EQUAL to that of its religious mission actually surprised me.

I would have thought that the subscribers and readers of TNH would have voted more positively than the 39% who voted yes. After all, those of us who read this periodical are very interested in the Greek news and most likely also in Greek history, language, culture, etc. If this question were to be presented to the general population of Greek Americans, I believe that the “No” results would have been significantly higher than the 57% results in TNH.

I love my church, I am fluent in Greek, born in America, but Greek was my first language. It mystifies me that the Archdiocese and the Metropolises would still consider us a “diaspora” church, since we are in at least the seventh generation of Greek Americans in the United States (5th generation in my family); none of the 4th or 5th generation speak Greek.

The Roman Catholic Church converted to the native language of the land 45 years ago; the Greek language was never the language Greece (Russia, Serbia, Rumania, Ukraine, etc.were always allowed to have the Liturgy in their language). The local Russian Orthodox churches use English exclusively and they are called the Orthodox Church in America, having dropped the ethnic reference of Russia. Unfortunately, many Greek Americans attend these churches instead of Greek Orthodox Churches.

The church should concentrate its efforts on religion. We have wonderful young clergymen who are adept at chanting in English; the Choir at the Archdiocesan Cathedral sings in English and Greek; this needs to be encouraged to all the choirs throughout the Archdiocese.

The ethnicity is acceptable and certainly encouraged, but it should not be equally weighted to religion. Greek Schools, dancing, cooking etc. should be taught but only to those who want to avail themselves of these extra-curricular activities; the curriculum of the church is RELIGION. This is and must be the main focus for us to survive as Orthodox Christians in the United States into the 22nd century.

George K Lavas
Rockville Centre, NY

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Bartholomew, Kirill Celebrate Divine Liturgy in Istanbul

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