2010 US Orthodox Christian Census Released

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17 responses to “2010 US Orthodox Christian Census Released”

1. Andrew

   October 6, 2010

   Every time I see one of these surveys come out I am happy and suspicious. Happy because its good to see hard numbers and stats tied to Orthodoxy in America. I am suspicious because I am not certain these surveys reward honesty. Ecclesial math is always a little fuzzy. In some ways I think they reward those who fluff up numbers. Maybe, just maybe that Church in Astoria has 5,000 adherents on its mailing list but only 100 regular attendees on a Sunday. So what are we really talking about here? Are we talking about real “adherents” and “attendees” or are we talking about the size of our mailing list and the those who show up on Pascha?

   In the end, numbers are not the sole arbiter of leadership. The Future of American Orthodoxy rests on the genuine literacy and evangelism. It does not rest on the the ability to look large in the context of a survey. After all the Apostles started out only as 12.

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2. Harry Coin

   October 6, 2010

   I notice that the survey asked the overwhelmingly opposed question about whether folk favor women priests. I think a very important issue many feel concerns our very survival, one that was unmentioned in the survey, was to gather opinion on whether senior ’empty nester’ well qualified priests should be considered as bishops if their only disqualification is the lack of death of their wife. This as women thank God don’t die in great numbers during their husband’s working age as they once did.

   Unlike women priests, allowing few among the married to be bishops is not an innovation, but a restoration of a earlier church practice.

   Of further essential and extreme demographic interest is a look at the history of the extinction of the species ‘working age widower priest/bishop’ over the decades. We see owing to the invention of anesthetics, antiseptics, antibiotics and the Caesarian operation women now outlive men. Also we see people living on average in retirement longer than most people lived on average altogether when most of the ecumenical councils of the church were held. This change of the world context is of survival level adaptive importance.

   Consider these academic results among many outlining our new reality:

   http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16850770

   http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/1639437/the_oldest_living_person.html?c
   at=5

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3. Isa Almisry

   October 6, 2010

   For more information or to schedule media interview with the principal researcher, contact:
   Alexei Krindatch (Standing Conference of the Canonical Orthodox Bishops in Americas)

   I thought they were “abolished.”

   Btw, I’d disable the email address before the “bots” get a hold of it.

   It shows the Romanians under the Patriarch as the fastest growing. Does that have anything to do with this?
   See: Orthodox News

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   1. Ilya Kharin

      October 8, 2010

      Curious – why hasn’t the quite canonical Georgian Orthodox Church been included in the list? There are only a few parishes to be sized up, so the task of adding them into the mix should not have been difficult. Meanwhile, I’ve even heard rumors they are setting up a monastery in US.

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4. George Michalopulos

   October 6, 2010

   Mr Krindatch needs to be congratulated. This must have been exhausting work. I’m curious though, now that it is published by SCOBA (which is supposed to be defunct according to the Chambesy enthusiasts –good catch, Isa) will the GOA keep on trumpeting the “1.5 million” member number for the GOA.

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   1. Harry Coin

      October 6, 2010

      Well, it’s down from 5 million in 1997 under the EP the Orthodox Observer

      Orthodox Observer, Sept 1997, P17.

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      1. George Michalopulos

         October 7, 2010

         What’s really sad Harry, is that when the GOA was instituted in 1922, there were at least 300,000 immigrants from Greece living in America. And now, four generations later, only 477,000? I’m sure the numbers are about the same (or worse) for the other jurisdictions.

         Personally, I realize God works on His own time and we should respect that. My question is are we going to cooperate with Him? One sure way would be for our hierarchy to recognize the abject failure of Orthodoxy in America. It’s like a Twelve-Step program, you won’t get better until you recognize that there is a problem.

         How to go about this? Some suggestions:

         First, mail out Krindatch’s report to all the American bishops. Second, call together an extraordinary session of the EA and have them study and discuss Krindatch’s report. Third, put out a press release that no longer will the jurisdictions lie about their numbers. (Knock heads over at The Orthodox Observer if you have to.) Fourth, create a committee on the EA to seriously consider how best to draw realistic and small dioceses. Have this same committee draw up ideas on how to incorporate said dioceses, etc.

         This is just a start. The same press release could say how the Orthodox have abandoned the inner city, which almost always was the site of their first congregations, thereby refusing to minister and evangelize the marginal people who remained. How much better would race relations be in America had three generations ago we had actively ministered in English to the people in these neighborhoods? Why do I say this? Because among all Christian confessions, only we Orthodox still maintain an emphasis on the ascetic struggle (Mormons do as well but they’re relationship with traditional Christianity is dicey at best.)

         Anyway, what do you think?

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         1. Harry Coin

            October 7, 2010

            George, first you answer me this: In what way is complaining to, recommending at, and expecting corrective action from, those personal security craving mostly ordained young never married, those same who deemed it wise to lead us to this pass, those same who have taken every spare nickle a parish could generate while providing zero new faces and money sucking scandal, sane?

            I think once senior empty nestger priests are bishops whose only ‘impediment’ to being bishops is that their wives haven’t died young, along with ‘narrow’ or ‘actual’ and not ‘rich, fat’ monastics — they know well what to do and don’t need us to explain it to them.

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            1. George Michalopulos

               October 7, 2010

               Harry, it’s not wise at all. I completely agree with you. Our bishops bear the greater blame, of this there can be no doubt because they have the anointing for teaching, preaching, and safeguarding the deposit of the faith, once delivered to the saints. All I’m saying is that we laymen have an almost equal responsibility for this sad state of affairs. After all, we allow such buffoonery to prosper.

               The laity in the OCA finally had enough and demanded changes. They got them. I just don’t see the same fortitude in the GOA unfortunately (and that’s a shame because we Hellenes are born rebels). Even when the Church of Greece declared autocephaly, it was King Otto and his advisors who demanded this action, not the citizenry.

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            2. Harry Coin

               October 7, 2010

               Well that’s what I worry about. The OCL too has tried that for so many years and had so little to show for it– except, except during the term of George Coupounas as President who took a more active approach.

               I really don’t see growth or survival no matter autonomy, autocephaly, whatever unless we figure out that many of our canons were crafted when ‘retirement’ was a word in the same category as ‘great grandmother’ and ‘great grandfather’— unknown and unused.

               Ever notice that in ancient languages? Fast easy word in Greek for Grandpa – Papou, Grandma – Yiayia. But Great-xxx? It’s Pros-Papos Pros-Mami — there’s a way to say it but you can tell from the construction it’s along the lines of cobbling up a compound bit to get a seldom used meaning across. That’s because nearly nobody lived long enough to make such a title meaningful. If they did there would be a change just like nobody puts up with ‘ten – hundred’ instead used so much we have ‘thousand’.

               And what’s more– That’s back in the day when women had babies nearly all the time — at an age that today makes us go banannas with social programs to avoid ‘teenage pregnancy’. Why do people think marraiges were ‘arranged’ and often hoped love would grow — because what does an early teenager know about it?

               But our well studied very academic scholarly ordained young never married bunch have a limbic avoidance of the entire subject. Might as well be talking about spotted zebras.

               I’ll bite along the lines you want: I think one of the bigger attractions Orthodox has is the instructive value of uplifting (not cultish guru-driven) ascetic struggle not in the context of services (prostrations, standing until you pass out, attending as monks do while a babysitter watches your kids WHAT?) — but in the context of elevating daily life.

               In the end I’m past getting involved in blaming or shaming or whatnot with the various inert leadership. If the people involved cared about any of the stuff preached we wouldn’t be here now. Look at the OCA’s archbishop in Canada now dealing with allegations of bothering the boys decades ago. And we hear about bishops referred to as xxx-oula’ and ‘o-micros’ and so on — by priests!

               I don’t think schisms are the answer because all that appears to do is set up ‘another church much the same on the other side of the island from the church I used to go to’. I think we need a serious spasm of introspection, some quiet frank talk, and then relevant ordiantions to the rank of bishop of men who everybody knows would be great great great for the whole church — if only his wife wasn’t living.

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5. Athanasius

   October 7, 2010

   Forgive me… but I dont understand why everyone gets so excited about the numbers game … it seems to me rather we should be concerned with the following information from the same source….

   http://www.orthodoxreality.org/ … go to the Orthodox Reality in America powerpoint slides…

   http://www.hartfordinstitute.org/research/Krindatch-OrthodoxRealityInAmerica.ppt

   Some of these facts are pretty dishartening….

   Most Orthodox Christians:

   -Are not Pro-Life
   -Have higher income than other denominations (yet we give less than other faiths)
   -only 23% are in church on a regulary basis
   -attend church less than Protestants
   -67% believe that to be a good Orthodox church you dont need to attend regularly
   -only 49% believe God is a personal God

   And the most concerning issue to peope was kids not returning to the church….

   Do we see a pattern here?

   If parents are not taking their kids to church regularly, why are they surprised that kids abandon the church?

   The quibble over numbers is quite meaningless!.. especially when considering from those numbers only maybe 25% are really showing up regularly and practicing the faith. Apparently, we have some educating to do.

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   1. Harry Coin

      October 7, 2010

      Athansios: The point is what is to be done? Adopting an inner emotional state like being disheartened hasn’t appeared to help. A popular approach to date has been whining about the need of those who want money for more of it. A further approach has been sort of whining on steroids often not so correctly called ‘admonishing’. In the past a loud sucking of teeth was often tried. Presently we see whining in the form of the blame game to parents who aren’t sure the people running the show are real enough to continue themselves that they ought to be more dedicated regarding their kids.

      While we do educate and right regularly what we don’t do is examine really what’s going on and make the inner changes necessary in terms of integrity with money, wastage in high places uncorrected, and all the things nobody wants to talk about (high clergy she-nan-i-gans) but which in fact are the real reasons this isn’t going anywhere. Today’s people don’t shake their fists and grab hold of the misdoer and put him on the first horse out of town as in the past. They simply observe change is beyond their means, mentioning the dead elephant in the living room everyone sees but won’t talk about is just going to risk their pensions or transfer them to mars or get their friends ‘mad’ for making a fuss and so, and so…

      The numbers we see and the weak-ass sort of ‘not deal with it’ responses about how we need to educate and admonish and otherwise not change what’s really the reason for the decay.

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      1. Athanasius

         October 7, 2010

         God permits apostasy to occur, don’t try to stop it with your weak hand – just protect yourself from it and that will suffice you. We should understand the times we live in, and not expect good order in church life; but just be thankful that on a personal level those who wish to be saved have the opportunity to do so.

         – St. Ignatius Brianchaninov (+1867)

          

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         1. Harry Coin

            October 8, 2010

            Ah yes, a fine selection from among the rich and deep trove of quotes on the theme ‘Peace Be Unto You– and right soon’.

            Many posting here indeed have already recognized God permits much not fit to ‘enter the kingdom’ to occur, most of us rumbled to that fact longer ago than two whole average lifetimes in the 1800’s.

            St. John Chrysostom found strength enough to not to stray into apostasy and had a wee dram of energy left over to stir ‘his weak hand’ in attempts improve the church matters of his day. No St. Anybody here I fear but at least we try to use what we have as we can.

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   2. George Michalopulos

      October 9, 2010

      Athanasios, you raise the most pertinent points in this survey. While I think that Mr Krindatch deserves fulsome praise for his exceedingly hard work, I can’t help but think that a giant asterisk should be placed by the numbers reported for the GOA. I’ve traveled all over America and attended GOA parishes and I can say that the “average” number of congregants is most definitely not 908. I’d have to say that it’s closer to 200. (Some parishes had easily less than 100.) Only when you get to the really big parishes like Dallas, Houston, and the ones in Chicago, NYC, etc., do you have 400+ attendees per church per Sunday. What’s most likely done here is the priests in question looked at census roles (how many Americans of Greek descent live in your city) and Pascha attendance.

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6. cynthia curran

   October 8, 2010

   On the state totals, large states like California and New York have much higher foreign born than your average state. Aremaians are concentated in Calfornia. Now, eastern states have higher percentages since more immirgants years ago came from eastern europe than states like California or Texas.

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7. cynthia curran

   October 9, 2010

   I mean Armeaninas are concentrated in California, one La City Glendale is known as an Armeanian ethnic enclave. And George you are right, in New York Texas and California will you find some bigger Greek churches.

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