As one of the “pro-lifers” besmirched by this ridiculous drivel, which i just discovered on-line almost 6 years since its publication, I thank you for defending the truth, which is always far more complex and textured than polemicists want to admit. May God bless you, my brother!

Fr. David

I joined Orthodoxy through the Greek Orthodox Archdiocese, and there was a great decision whether to go through the GOA or the OCA. I leaned more towards OCA as they had most of their services in English and seemed to be more of an Orthodoxy Church in America, as opposed to a Russian Orthodox Church that happened to have a parish in the USA.

BUT the Greek church was the seemingly larger church and I thought I could “hide” in it observe while I was evaluating the situation. I grew up as a “congregationalist” which actually means at its roots a person wanting to follow the will of God above the will of some hierarch that might not be hold (a situation that people found themselves in many years ago when that offshoot was formed). As I sought to go back to my “roots”, which culturally are traced to England, I cam in contact with a more “conservative” episcopal parish where the pastor had a sign on the inside of the pulpit that he read to himself each time he ascended to preach (“woe unto me if I preach not the Gospel”) and I felt the stance of the church was based on the Bible,the only “certain authority” I know of then. But later on I found that denomination involved in bitter political battles that stemmed from personal interpretations of scriptural contexts adapted to support secular issues. Each time I went to a “wider church” event it seemed we had to battle over theology.

At the time of the “gay bishop” fiasco I saw a TV ad for a “Glendi” event where the pastor was going to give a tour of the building they worshiped in and talk about orthodoxy. So I came. I then signed up for the “Orthodoxy 101” class. I did so because what I had anguished about and come to believe as scriptural and true, was what apparently Orthodoxy has thought all along.

So for 3 years I came to the orthodox church services, mostly in the Greek church, but sometimes in the OCA. Finally I had to make the choice. Oh how hard that was. I wanted to join the Church (Orthodox). But in the USA I could not do that.I had to join a shadow, or an aspect, of the church that focused more on ethnicity than the Gospel.This was less evident in the OCA. There was not an Antiochian parish in the town I was living it then.

So you ask why I joined through the “Greek” church? It is because of an “Antiochian” couple that shared many books with me and understood my desire to base a lot of my thinking upon scripture. Probably if they has found an Antiochian parish in this town they would have gone there, but like me, the “Greek” parish had some really saintly people that were welcoming us with open arms AND pointing in daily lives to Jesus.

My biggest obsticle? The view that Orthodoxy was what this writer calls protestant dominionist views. I wanted to follow Jesus the Christ in HIS Church.
I did not want to be part of a movement to control everyone’s thinking by forcing them to join a particular political body called the “xyz church”. So for three years I had sat under the teachings of a Pastor that seemed to put God first, or at least that was his desire. And, I was “loved” by people and so I joined through the portal that seemed to care about me.

I was saddened however, that I could not join “The Church, under the ethnic jurisdiction of the Greek Archdiocese in America” as no one aspect of Orthodoxy for our country existed. All that did exist was little groupings for temporary shelter until people returned “home” to the Church (orthodox) in the country they fled from. The closest to a USA Church (Orthodox) is the OCA, as it was started as a mission in what is now called Alaska before most anyone else proclaimed the Gospel in this land.

I take offense, if I may, at the idea that the Church has a cultural heritage outside of the heavenly culture. We have NO roots in ANY country. We have roots in a KINGDOM which is “not of this earth”. To focus upon an earthly country as the heritage that MUST define our faith, is somehow listening to the devil, in my mind.

So like the protestant that I was before and I “ignored” all the denominations as sort of like different people wearing different clothes based upon their choices (Congregationalists had a form of government where the individual congregation, under Christ, governed the church; Presbyterians had a form of government where an elected body called the Presbytery, which was like a board of deacons, governed the church; Episcopalians had a form of government where the Bishops [episkopos ] governed the church; Methodists came from an Anglican/Episcopal foundation and did things according to the same Method in governing the church; Baptists had a congregational form of government but understood that the word we translate as being “baptize” actually meant to “wash under the water” and so they immersed the people that were brought into the church through baptism, and on it went).

It was Christ as the “Head of the Church” that mattered, not the minor ways of doing things that identified that political organization known as the “fill-in-the-blank church” I was affiliated with. It was the view that submission to Christ was what defined you as a Christian and that changed life being demonstrated by the “works” that expressed the “faith” of that life that was now intended to be under the submission of Christ (generically meant to include all aspects of the Trinity but focusing most honor on the one that redeemed us.)

So…

The “differences” with the ethnic flavors of the United States Church (Orthodox) were seemingly just some minor thing in my mind. It was not the political administration or “housekeeping” that I was concerned with. It was the Theology that was important. Was this group following what the Apostles had taught? I could not care less about the administrative structure of the political entity known as this “fill-in-the-blank church” which I was affiliating with. The question was is it Theologically in alliance with the One True CHURCH founded by Christ. If the answer is yes, then do I feel comfortable there.

So what was comfortable for me?

It was can I NOT be the center of attention, but sort of meld into the crowd, but also have my questions heard as I sought to find out what the “will of God” is. I feel, to this day, most comfortable in an OCA or Antiochian church family, because I do not need to mouth words that I do not understand, sing words I do not understand, or otherwise have a bunch of “gibberish” as part of the worship experience which I do not understand. Insisting on the language of a country that no longer is the “homeland” of most of the people in a congregation is a lot like insisting on “speaking in tongues” where there is no interpreter. You just do not know what is being said. Is it the Lord’s prayer or are they saying words in praise of the devil? You can’t tell. They are speaking in a language that you can not (at the moment) understand. It is, in my mind, exactly the opposite of the work of God at Pentecost. They he had people speak so that the people in the crowd would HEAR the message of the Gospel in their own language, know it was a work of God, and believe.

There is very little mental belief in hearing a bunch of sounds that you can not understand the meaning of. That has to be a big “leap of faith” that the people you are worshiping with have not “gone off the deep end” and the words they are saying have a meaning that is in accordance with the teachings of the Apostles and of Christ. You can not mentally evaluate the words as the sounds are just so much Glossolalia, which you have to trust the people around you when they say that is actually another language — because you do not know that language at the time.

Nowhere in the Gospels or any scripture or even in my limited readings of the “Church Fathers” do I find that salvation is based upon learning some other language to use in part or all of the worship service. Nope, salvation is based upon the “finished work” of Christ in his crucifixion and resurrection. The Church (what we call Orthodoxy) has always taught that there may be a point where one turns to God (being “born again” so to speak) but also each moment of each day is a point of decision to either follow the way God had ordained or another path. The position has always been “let mind be in you that was in Christ Jesus” in submission to “The Father’s Will”.

So…

I seen no need for Mr. Katopodis’s fears. I see CHRIST as the HEAD Of THE CHURCH and I find no group, whether from within or without, that has more authority than GOD. It is my longing, my desire, to join with Jesus in Gethsemani and pray “they they might all be one”. I, personally, find NO PLACE in the Church for the promotion of national values, customs, languages, heritages, over the GOSPEL (Good News) of Jesus the Christ.

Me thinks that Mr. Katpodis is more afraid that if the people he is objecting to get an “upper hand” he might be faced with a Church that has as it primary focus the bringing to Christ of those outside of the church as opposed to a heritage preservation club, that he seems to identify as the Church. I am positive that the leaders of the Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America would agree with what I have said. It is the Gospel of Jesus Christ that is of primary importance, and sadly enough there are still people fleeing from turmoil in Greece to this land for temporary refuge until things “quiet down” and they can “go back home”.

BUT we need a national or Northern Hemisphere Church. The political or administrative aspects of the Orthodox Entities that make up the Church in the United States needs to be under one structure (and personally I think that structure needs to give “first amongst equals” status to the Ecumenical Patriarch) that can have ethnic sections to assist those who still mainly speak another language while they “take refuge” for a time here.

BUT we also need a section that has an ethnic heritage that is of this country. THAT is all to often missing in the USA and I would hope that we pray to God to help us “grow up” and actively follow the prayer of Jesus “that they might all be one” . We speak with ONE VOICE Theologically. I think it is time to put petty differences aside and also create a UNIFIED CHURCH, the American Church, or the Church in the USA, or whatever it is called.

Yet, my protestant background sees the Headship of Jesus, and the Gospel message as the primary concern of the Church. The administrative mess is like when you have 4 or 5 companies that have come to the conclusion that they are all providing similar services and it would be best, for name recognition, that they merge into one company. How do you do this and respect the ways that the previously separate companies had grown. Which “branches” do you close? Which ones do you “open”. Banks are doing this all the time in the USA.

Do the banking policies change? Nope they are mostly the same, just the name changes over the door. The administrative personnel are often the same. Sometimes there is a time when the old name is there and it is identified as being party of and then the new name. Then a few years later it is the new transitional name, and it is identified as being what was part of the old name. And finally the new name, or another final new name, is adopted and there is no reference to the old name before the merger.

The banking policies have pretty much stayed the same.The uniqueness of each of the separate (once independent) banks have been brought into the larger and new bank entity.

So…

Why can’t we do this within the church? The answer is will power. Are we willing to follow Christ and promote His Gospel or do we only want to promote a heritage like other ethnic clubs? Me thinks people like Mr. Katopodis are more concerned about losing control of their ethnic club than any theological issues.

I desire to follow Christ. I desire to be a “little anointed one”. Period. Please Pray that I do so, sooner rather than later.

Blessings

Nektarios (charlie)

We are not talking about rights, we are talking about protecting the gift of life. Once we descend into the egalitarian, legalistic quagmire of ‘rights’ the battle is already half lost.

What ‘rights’ do we have before God?

The real battle is over whose vision of humanity will prevail. The nihilistic vision of man as nothing more than evolved primordial ooze in no substantial way intrinsically different than any other life form or the traditional understanding of humanity as central to the continuance of life (an idea not limited to Christianity).

As long as the either pole of the evolutionary vision of man as ooze or superman is remains dominant, abortion and all of the other associated dehumanizations that proceed in the name of fairness, equality and justice will abound.

The answer is not legislation, but evangelization, the very thing that Mr. Katopodis seems to reject. Perhaps if we all pondered our own baptism where we, or our God parents, rejected Satan and all his works, pledged to unite ourselves with Christ, and accept the teaching authority of the Church by denouncing all heresy ancient and modern, we’d be better off.

Just remember though, we cannot and should not expect our government to be better than we are. Governments always reflect the collective will of the people they govern. People who refuse to govern themselves, are prone to accepting tyranny whether it be large or small.

Even in the Church. We have bad bishops in part because we’d rather be told what to do than to accept the responsibility of living in community. Mr. Katopodis is uncomfortable because the converts he sees coming into the Church don’t reflect his own worldview. He does not bother to ask himself if he is in concord with the Church or not, he just assumes he is.

Even if we were to succeed in changing the legal climate to oppose abortion, we have not done our job. As Fr. Hans said, changed laws come from changed hearts.

As a child of the 60’s I participated in the ideas that laid the groundwork for the licentious culture in which we now live. I wasn’t out there banging the drums, but I certainly did not oppose the ideas and generally welcomed them. So now, I’m on the other side because God dragged me kicking and screaming into the Church. I have much to repent of.

Along the way, most of the significant doors that I had to pass through to the Church were opened to my by Protestants some of them quite heretical.

We cannot place our faith in the world at all and no matter how well intentioned laws are, they are of the world and do nothing for salvation execpt perhaps to keep the more timid from transgressing too egregiously. Laws do not change belief, they govern behavior. Those who believe it is perfectly OK to slaughter unborn children for their own convenience or ideological agenda will still believe that way if the law were to change tonight. Belief is not infringed in the slightest by any law, no matter how draconian.

We either believe that “the gates of hell will not prevail” against the Church or we believe she is soley a man-made institution that is ours to define and protect. We either submit to the love of Christ and live the life of repentance, prayer, fasting and almsgiving the Church instructs us to live, or we prefer the ways of the world and the twisting of power to our own advantage. There is no middle ground.

Do not ever think that one can be a Christian without giving offense. Truth is persecuted where ever it is found.

To paraphrase St. Seraphim of Sarov: If we allow ourselves to be transformed and transfigured by the Grace of God, then others around us will also partake of that Grace. We are not individual, autonomous beings. Everything we do, or don’t do has an effect on everyone else. Laws are just laws.

Regarding the enforcement of these laws, the abortionist is held accountable, not the mother.

Much more could be done. For example, federal funding for Planned Parenthood should be stopped. (Abortion is a very lucrative business the way it is, BTW.) Also, PP hides cases of assault, statutory rapes, etc. Reporting requirements needs to be applied to them.

Remember, if Roe v. Wade is ever overturned, the question goes to the states.

I have started a blog entitled “Praxis” as a way to initiate (read: inspire) the founding of the “American Union of Orthodox Christian Citizens”. It hopes to attract other Orthodox conservatives who are politically centrist-to-the-left. [Unlike similar Union of Orthodox Citizens of Russia and Ukraine who *appear* to be to, not only far-right and extremely pro-Rus but, on the fringe of being cult-like.] Potentially –depending upon the consensus of its membership– AUOCC would be one political voice of Orthodoxy so as to influence American politic while avoiding the Church/State divide. But, I digress.

For any of us who have been well-catechized and have humbled our past notions to the True Faith of Holy Orthodoxy we all agree that abortion is a sin, as well as an issue of moral imperative and a basic human right. There is no discussion: abortion is wrong and it must be stopped. Yet abortion has existed in human history for more than 2k years. What I am interested in seeing is a discussion on how America is to out-law abortion? Because that too has its problems. How do we legislate against abortion without endangering the life of those women who will defy the new law? Should there be a strategy to influence –rather than militancy by us (pro-life)– in order to change (i.e., transfigure) the culture of death into a culture of life in which political atmosphere the pro-abortionists would have lost their ground?

Please do not ‘hang’ on any particular word I’ve written. I’m both thinking out loud and asking for your input about how to legislate an Orthodox pro-life position to abortion without reversing the threat of death upon the “mother” and without violating the freedom of others to believe differently?

David Simon
AUOCC

Part of the difficulty the Church faces in this country is how to be authentically Orthodox in the midst of the most alien culture the Church has ever encountered. It is a culture founded on a denial of everything we, as Orthodox, hold true. Even the Chrisitan element in it is largely heretical. To bring people who have been infected with heresies back to the true Christ is quite difficult. It is the fundamental struggle we all face.

The big divide is that the Church knows who Jesus Christ is and one can really expeience Him and be with Him in the Church in a manner that is, frankly, impossible anywhere else. Everybody else believes they know Him and many of them are partly correct, they even can come quite close to Him by sheer love.

Many Orthodox unfortunately, are like Esau–willing to sell their birth-right (or re-birth-right) for the pottage of the world. If we don’t follow the life of the Church in repentance, prayer, fasting, and almsgiving, we are participating in the give away.

Having said that, I have met fellow converts who scare me. I have met converts who refuse to allow the Liturgikon to be translated into modern English because King James English is a liturgical language that comes from God. I have also met fellow converts who actually demean any hierarch who dares to support a Democrat. So, Mr. Katopodis could easily have met some of our shameful converts. But, to ascribe to all of us converts what a few of our scary converts are doing is to tar everyone with a broad brush.

Finally, I have been very fortunate. One of my best friends is the local Greek Orthodox priest. He and I are together at many of the mid-week feast days. We talk to each other. We make sure that we do not sheep steal from each other. I feel that we image what the Church can be and should be. Many of us in Orthodoxy are neither Mr. Katopodis nor Religious Right.

Many converts come into Orthodoxy seeking the true Church, but hang onto a whole set of beliefs from their days as Evangelicals. These beliefs are just as incompatible with Orthodoxy as the pro-abortion stance of some ‘cradles’ like Katopodis.

Domestically, there is a tendency among many convert Evangelicals to treat every domestic political issue as if it were a matter of faith. This baptism of politics into a pseudo-religion is wrong, of course.

In the international arena, many Evangelical converts come into the faith and never learn the true interpretation of Revelations according to the Church. This leads to the awful experience I had a few months back where an Orthodox convert (three years already) gave me a long dissertation on how Russia is Gog and how the U.S. must stand against Russia to retain God’s favor.

I am fully aware that the lefties in our midst are awful on all kinds of issues. But the unreconstructed attitudes of Orthodox converts from the Right also has to be dealt with, preferable in Catechism!