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Comments on: Transcription of Met. Jonah’s Speech on Orthodoxy Unity in America https://www.aoiusa.org/transcription-of-met-jonahs-speech/ A Research and Educational Organization that engages the cultural issues of the day within the Orthodox Christian Tradition Sat, 11 Apr 2009 01:52:46 +0000 hourly 1 https://wordpress.org/?v=6.3.3 By: George Michalopulos https://www.aoiusa.org/transcription-of-met-jonahs-speech/#comment-3283 Fri, 10 Apr 2009 23:05:18 +0000 https://www.aoiusa.org/?p=1516#comment-3283 Fr Andrew, I would most definately be interested. Please count me in! I certainly don’t want to belabor the point, but Demetrius I believe, is correct in his assessment. I for one, never said that the Russian Orthodox Greek Catholic Archdiocese was “united” and that people were happy and that things were wonderful. Schisms did arise. My own people treated a living saint (Arb Tikhon) abominably in Chicago, etc.

Parenthetically, why would St Tikhon think he could go into the Greek parish unless he felt that as America’s hierarch he had the right to do so? I don’t believe it’s the wont of Orthodox bishops to waltz into any church they feel like.

Regardless, the point of +Jonah’s sermon was spot-on, in all its particulars. I am presently researching the actual number of American Orthodox parishes in the pre-Bolshevik era to see how many there actually were.

Regardless, a main point of argument you have is that several of the many dozens of non-Metropolia parishes were inaugurated independently and financed independently as such. This is essentially what all parishes in America do and have done since the disestabishment of Church from State. Unless I’m mistaken, none of the Orthodox parishes ever received funding from their respective jurisdictions for the erection of actual churches so simply asserting the fact that Greeks (or Serbs, or Lebanese, etc.) built their churches w/out asking permission of the Metropolia doesn’t add heft to your case.

This opens up a whole other can of worms however: These Albanians/Greeks/Serbs/etc. built their parishes without the permission of anybody in the Old Country either! And many recruited priests of dubious credentials from said Old Country. Are we then to assume that these same parishes are uncanonical? I dread to go down this road as it opens up whether the mysteries celebrated there were valid. It is equally clear however that had proper canonical order been followed we would not have to ask these questions at all.

One thing I can be sure of: no jurisdiction was here before the Russian one. Regardless of how small it may have been (again, an open question), it makes absolutely no difference. The original Moravian Mission of Cyril and Methodius was probably no more than 100 people. If the GOAA/EP wants to make the case that there was no Orthodox presence in America, then they should go ahead and make it. They won’t because they can’t.

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By: Demetrius https://www.aoiusa.org/transcription-of-met-jonahs-speech/#comment-3282 Fri, 10 Apr 2009 22:34:08 +0000 https://www.aoiusa.org/?p=1516#comment-3282 Father Andrew,

With great respect, I humbly state that I have heard these arguments you present before. If they are true and pre-Bolshevik unity was a myth, why then was it ever necessary for His All Holiness to invoke the infamous Canon 28? If your presentation of history is correct, why would he need to. Couldn’t he simply let history be presented by revealing these true? Couldn’t he reveal these primary sources and abolish this “myth”?

I too have read Mr. Michalopulos’ book, with disclosure I am proud to know him as a friend, but I have never seen evidence presented ever to the contrary of what is stated in his book. A book I believe to be well researched and objective.

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By: Fr. Andrew https://www.aoiusa.org/transcription-of-met-jonahs-speech/#comment-3280 Fri, 10 Apr 2009 21:48:32 +0000 https://www.aoiusa.org/?p=1516#comment-3280 George,

Based on primary sources, only a small handful (not “many”) of Greek parishes received anything at all from the Russian hierarchy.

In any event, calling it a “schism” is a canonical judgment, one based on the assumption that sending Russian missionaries to Russian Alaska gave the Russian church jurisdiction all the way down to Florida, across the then territory of multiple colonial powers. Of course, this is by no means an agreed-upon evaluation.

I’m not arguing either way on this question, only commenting on the historical reality, which is that the pre-Bolshevik situation of Orthodoxy in America was far from united. Contrary to Metr. Jonah’s comments, the non-Russian portion was by no means a tiny minority.

To be honest, every time I look at them or at scholarship based directly on them, I find the support for a pre-Bolshevik Russian hegemony to be more and more, as we say, a “myth.” It’s not even clear that Russia itself regarded America as its exclusive territory. (For example, after 1867, there was a move to close down the Russian vicariate in America, according to a letter from St. Innocent, since in their opinion Alaska was no longer part of Russia’s canonical territory.)

I have, by the way, read your book that you wrote with Dcn. Ezra, and while I do appreciate what you were trying to accomplish, I hope that you’ll work more with primary sources in your next foray into the field. One of the big problems with historiography in American Orthodoxy has been a constant use of repetition from secondary sources, such that certain ideas — such as the myth of pre-Bolshevik unity — keep getting repeated without anything to back them up. (Ironically enough, it was most likely Fr. Boris Burden, one of Aftimios Ofiesh’s henchmen, who probably invented the myth.)

There is a move by several historians here in America to form a historical society dedicated to research and publishing in the field. Perhaps you might be interested.

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By: George Michalopulos https://www.aoiusa.org/transcription-of-met-jonahs-speech/#comment-3278 Fri, 10 Apr 2009 20:36:30 +0000 https://www.aoiusa.org/?p=1516#comment-3278 Fr Andrew, bless,

Your numbers are inacurate as well. By 1900 there were at least 12 Serbian parishes alone. I’ll be glad to check the other numbers. As for the Greeks not being part of the Metropolia, that is incorrect if you’re making a categorical statement. Many Greeks (and Greek parishes) were part of the Metropolia and received their articles, vestments, and even stipehds from them. Some of course were not. This however is a sign of schism and trying to call it the “myth of unity” shows how chagrine we of the ethnic jurisdictions are about this fact.

Even if we said that these parishes were not the product of schism per se, they were the product of an extra-canonical, parallel process which leaves one with a queasy feeling as regards to canonicity. Again: why did not the EP set up parishes in Siberia? Siberia wasn’t a part of Russia for a long time. Why not China? or Japan? These were never part of the Russian state. It’s clear that the EP could have but chose instead to honor Russia’s evangelistic effort which was already undergoing in those lands. So too did Patriarh Joachim III honor Moscow’s claim to North America.

As for Metropolitan Jonah’s sermon, it was beautiful and truthful. Churches that are more concerned with long-dead empires have forfeited the Gospel. The Holy Spirit will not go where it is not wanted.

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By: Greg Papko https://www.aoiusa.org/transcription-of-met-jonahs-speech/#comment-3277 Fri, 10 Apr 2009 20:29:56 +0000 https://www.aoiusa.org/?p=1516#comment-3277 I caught wind of this: Metropolitan Methodios responds to Metropolitan Jonah.

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By: Chrys https://www.aoiusa.org/transcription-of-met-jonahs-speech/#comment-3247 Wed, 08 Apr 2009 23:05:49 +0000 https://www.aoiusa.org/?p=1516#comment-3247 Beautifully said, Father. I deeply appreciate the Metropolitan’s candor and courage – and the humility it takes to honestly address this situation. As in the early Church, such divisions expose us to judgment and are, as it were, a call to a much deeper conversion. Communion – in all its forms – is found only in God. As we grow deeper in the love of God, only then will we – and thousands around us – truly find what we are seeking. If we focus on our true mission, then I expect that the “prerogatives” will take care of themselves. (Of course, it is difficult to claim prerogatives while you are taking up your cross and following Him Who – though He was equal to God – claimed no prerogatives.) We follow a Savior Who was obedient to death and raised up through humility. At times it looks like we have decided to follow a different path.

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By: Fr. David Hudson https://www.aoiusa.org/transcription-of-met-jonahs-speech/#comment-3238 Wed, 08 Apr 2009 19:45:28 +0000 https://www.aoiusa.org/?p=1516#comment-3238 Fathers and Brothers,

I was converted to Orthodoxy and ordained to the priesthood in post-communist Romania. As far as being integrated, I felt as integrated as a foreigner could possibly be. Still, for some, I was suspected as a spy; for some, I was resented as an intruder; for some, I was beloved as an adopted son, brother, and eventually father; for some, I was revered as a gift of grace; for some, perhaps I was even exploited as a trophy.

For me, Orthodoxy as a way of life, and as an organic and inseparable element of local culture, and as a single administrative unity, was the norm until I returned to this country. That is not to say that it was in any way characterized by UNIFORMITY. Rather, all the things that here in America cause us to cling to the separation and protection of our jurisdictional niches, all of them were (and still are) encompassed within a single local and national Orthodoxy.

If any kind of unity ever comes to Orthodoxy in America, it will be in spite of our very complex and multi-faceted differences, and in spite of our interests in preserving them. It will certainly not eliminate them. Perhaps it is we ourselves who are the greatest obstacle to unity, not Constantinople or Moscow or Antioch or Bucharest.

I tend to think that the only way forward is to put on blinders and focus on our mission in America. Although if we could agree on the mission of Orthodoxy in America, we probably would already be united. Perhaps the lines need to be re-drawn, perhaps the problem needs to be re-defined; perhaps a totally new paradigm needs to break through, one that can accommodate all of the above. There is nothing new under the sun, no challenges that have not in principle been successfully overcome in the past.

Consider the cultural and linguistic fault-lines that threatened the unity of the Church in Acts 6:1, or the conservative versus innovative clash that could have divided the Church in Acts 15.

Metropolitan Jonah is not calling everyone to join the OCA; he is hinting at new wineskins and perhaps new paradigms. What is defective about the OCA’s autocephaly is that it was granted to one of many jurisdictions existing in parallel at the same time and in the same place. As such, it was perhaps as much a provocation as it was a solution. I’m not suggesting an annulment, as might be granted in an unconsummated marriage, but simply remarking on the obvious; whether we call the OCA autocephalous or autonomous, it has not been an adequate solution to the complex situation of Orthodoxy in America. But if Metropolitan Jonah recognizes that, then we may be well on our way out of this impasse.

In His Beatitude’s words: “It is imperative for us to come together. Not for all the other churches, the Antiochians and the Serbians and the Bulgarians and the Romanians and everyone, to join the OCA, but to come together in a new organization of Orthodoxy in North American that brings us all together as one Church, even just pulling together all our existing organizations so that all the bishops sit on one Synod, so that all the Metropolitans get together on a special Synod or something like that.”

Since we do have a very long way to go in terms of an organic, coherent American Orthodoxy that encompasses diversity in unity, thank God that Metropolitan Jonah is calling us to A REALISTIC STEP, as contrasted with the recent call from Constantinople. It is not about prerogatives; it is about mission.

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By: Albion https://www.aoiusa.org/transcription-of-met-jonahs-speech/#comment-3234 Wed, 08 Apr 2009 15:43:56 +0000 https://www.aoiusa.org/?p=1516#comment-3234 Meeting in Cypress?

As far as I know, a cypress is a tree. Cyprus is an island and a country in the eastern Mediterranean, where I live.

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By: Fr. Andrew https://www.aoiusa.org/transcription-of-met-jonahs-speech/#comment-3233 Wed, 08 Apr 2009 13:49:47 +0000 https://www.aoiusa.org/?p=1516#comment-3233 With all due respect to His Beatitude, there were not 800 Orthodox churches in America during the time of St. Tikhon. (By 1920 itself, after Tikhon’s departure, there were about 250.) It’s also been pretty clearly established by scholars looking at actual primary sources that there really has never been administrative unity in Orthodox America. Outside of Alaska, Russian Orthodoxy, Greek Orthodoxy, Antiochian Orthodoxy, Serbian Orthodoxy, Bulgarian Orthodoxy, Albanian Orthodoxy, etc., all pretty much arrived here almost simultaneously.

In 1890, there were only two Orthodox churches in the Lower 48. Thirty years later, there were 250. About half of the people were Greek, who had nothing to do with the Russian administration.

Look for the paper being published sometime soon in St. Vlad’s Quarterly by Matthew Namee called “The Myth of Unity,” which should put to rest this oft-repeated error that there ever was united jurisdiction in America. (Mind you, this is a different question from what “ought” to have been done, which we must leave to the canonists.)

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