Dear Isa:

The Church of Antioch was there! Get your facts straight and leave church politics where they belong.

I think you should read the the so called treaty and closely look ta the “Attendees”.

In reality, the church is going to try to accomplish this by covering our eyes so to speak, so they can form the alliance with the Vatican once and for all (see the Balamand Treaty 1993 Balamand Lebanon). The Orthodox Church here in America has fallen away from the traditions of the so called OLD WORLD Church, which by the way is still the Historical Church of TRADITION, way of the Holy Fathers.

the Churches which signed Balamand, which isn’t in the canonical territory of the OCA. It’s in the patriarchate of Antioch “where the disciples were first called Christians.” “The Patriarchate which oversees the direct and indirect works of its church body throughout the world including of the old world, because now this is the new world. Hmmmm”: by this I take it you mean the Phanar. I’ve seen how it hss nearly destroyed and killed off the Patriarchate of Jerusalem, something the pagans, Muslims and Crusaders couldn’t accomplish. Hmmmm.

you may have to change churches again. Believe me I have. We the Orthodox, still have a few good priests here that we can align ourselves for our salvation.

Your bishop in the Orthodox diptychs of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church?

Btw, on the Fr. Hopko, not so called but in reality: a few years ago a priest’s wife fell asleep while he was hospitalized. They were in another jurisdiction, but Fr. Hopko went to the hospital room the day of the funeral, and he celebrated the full office for the priest, so that he could join in the prayers for his wife.

I think the Old World Church has fallen away from Historical Church Tradition of the Holy Fathers as well.

Your comment is unfortunately true. I have paid close attention to his dilemma within the Greek Orthodox Church in America.
The first thing, you as a new convert to the Orthodox religion here in America have to make sure! That you align yourself and your family with a traditional and stead fast Orthodox Priest. Choose your parish priest for your soul as you would choose your doctor for your health!

Long story short, what so called Fr. Thomas Hopko is trying to make clear ostensibly, is that the Church is trying to head into a new self governing position. This means leaving the Patriarchate which oversees the direct and indirect works of its church body throughout the world including of the old world, because now this is the new world. Hmmmm.

In reality, the church is going to try to accomplish this by covering our eyes so to speak, so they can form the alliance with the Vatican once and for all (see the Balamand Treaty 1993 Balamand Lebanon). The Orthodox Church here in America has fallen away from the traditions of the so called OLD WORLD Church, which by the way is still the Historical Church of TRADITION, way of the Holy Fathers.

Fr. Hopko fails to tell his readers that he is for the UNIA “ Balamand treaty 1993”.

Therefore, you may have to change churches again. Believe me I have. We the Orthodox, still have a few good priests here that we can align ourselves for our salvation.

The Patriarchate of Constantinople will never agree to it because the Greek Church in America is its lifeline. There are only 900 Greeks left in Istanbul.

What is going on from my own observation is exactly what happened in the four churches that we say split. When there is a striving for power and control there will always follow corruption.

What drew us into the Orthodox Faith was the authenticity of the Church and it unity in history. We found what we were looking for after a very long journey. The only good division is one dividing themselves from the world and uniting themselves with the Orthodox Church.

I hope and pray that all the pride, power struggles, and division will end, how else can the house stand?

A new convert and his wife.

Yanni, an excellent analysis. I think many of us who are more traditionalist/conservative have been feeling this situation instinctively. You’ve put it in words that vocalize our intuitions.

I agree.

Notice that all of the talk of “unity” centers around some kind creature called “administrative unity” leaving out the herd of “elephants” in the room, namely the great differences the various jurisdictions have in living out the faith (praxis).

There are great differences in the reception of converts. Orthodox marriage. Confession. Communion. Fasting. Monasticism. Ecumenism. And let’s not forget the Calendar. Tradition vs. tradition. Piety vs. Laxity. Etc.

All of this talk, talk, talk about “administrative unity” doesn’t even begin to address the differences in how we, the Orthodox Church in America (including the OCA) live out the faith.

I predict that we will see a further shaking up and out of the Orthodox Church in America (including the OCA) where natural allies will join together, like with like. Traditionalists with Traditionalists. “t”raditionalists with “t”raditionalists. Old Calendar with Old Calendar. New C. with New C…You get my point.

I agree with Fr. Seraphim that God is allowing this to happen during these evil days in which we are living in order to protect the faith so no one American Patriarch can mess up the whole Orthodox Church in America (including the OCA).

We will all make our alliances. Join our teams. As to which grouping will be the true keepers of the Faith? The truth will out. God will reveal it in due time.

Very well said Father. The cause of unity failure can be summed up in a few words: lack of trust. Lack of trust is detrimental to any sort of relationship but it is often beneficial to maintaining safe boundaries.

The two Romanian epharchies are separated not due to ethnic reasons, nor because the Romanian Patriarch does not want unity. They are separated because of the brutal intervention of the secular Communist authorities in Church’s affairs. This led to lack of trust and confidence within the Church. The root of secularism was Protestantism; this is a fact, even though today there are elements within fighting against its sour fruits. We are living here in the mist protestant wisdom and philosophies. Do we have any warranty that a “really bad apple” won’t “take over and trash everything”?

Perhaps, the higher cause of disunity is the lack of love. Often, comments here reflect the lack of love towards the “old world”, towards our “parents”. They might be bad, but they are the ones who gave us life. Honoring our parents means that we honor the life that was given to us.

The good news is that the lack of unity does not prevent any of us from prayer, vigil and inner struggle.

Andrew, you raise several interesting questions. I don’t know that anybody can know the answer to these questions. Maybe it’s better to just go back to the first principles of the EAs and look to see if they are coherent. You know, GIGO. Personally, they don’t look very coherent at all.

Are there good things in them? yeah, it killed Canon 28 after a fashion. But good things happened in the Soviet Union as well (they put the first man in space). That’s very thin gruel indeed. But when we get to brass tacks, what are we left with? An unworkable project whose unstated purpose was to frustrate unity in the US and failing that, try to subjugate the colonial eparchies (and the OCA) to the EP.

will this happen? Doubtful. Should we want it to happen? Heavens no! I guess what I’m trying to say is that the entire project was unOrthodox from its inception, hence it’s bound to fail.

George, let me toss out the following question to take thinking about the EA one step further.

One question that needs to be asked is the EA concilliar at all? Let me give you an example: Lets say there is an issue before the EA of importance. First lets ask ourselves are the members allowed to vote? Second if they are allowed to vote lets say 2/3 of the bishops of the EA voted in a manner contrary to the wishes of the Chairman and the EP. What happens? Can the chair and the EP simply veto the results? Can 2/3 of the members of the EA be overruled by the chair?
Nobody really knows now do they?

The more you scratch the surface the more you really wonder about the the nature of this process. Unless there is a documented process of accountability and conciliarity the EA is one step away from anarchy and irrelevance. Just because all the bishops show up in the same place at the same time does not mean what transpires is conciliar.

Given the Phanar’s vision of Church governance, I do not see the EA being conciliar at all. The Phanar is not going to risk engaging in a conciliar process at the risk of its political interests in the USA. How much money have they spent building this Potemkin Village?

Absolutely, my picture was not complete, because I made a short comment. I disagree with you – I did not ignore anything or give a false narrative – I made a short comment. If we were having a longer discussion, the sorts of things you mentioned would come out.

The big elephant, that nobody has the guts to talk about is that the EP is unfit to rule here, because of his power mongering and ecumenism. Will anybody in a position of power and authority call him on his excesses? He has done things that he should be brought to trial for.

God has allowed this uncanonical situation. I am not sure why, but it could be to protect Orthodoxy. With all the chiefs arguing and posturing, it has been impossible for any really bad apple to take over and trash everything. That does not justify our disunity, but perhaps it must be this way. I do not want the EP’s Orthodox and piety. I do not want Metrolitan Philip’s piety and strong man tactics. I do not want the mess the OCA is in to be multiplied by 1000.

I want a church that respects tradition, and true piety. The unity that is being proposed will not do that, in my strong opinion.