I have always thought that “studying” theology in seminaries were not very fruitful. I got this from Saint Gregory Palamas. He said something of the like of that monks know God more than any seminarian would. Saint John Chysostom said that bishops should be taken from the monastics as well, he did not say those who studied God in a school should be chosen. Yet it seems today all bishops are taken from the schools, and almost none from the monastic community! Why is this? I do not understand this about the Orthodox Church!

sorry for my terrible paraphrasing of the saints, I would quote them but someone is borrowing their writings from me at the moment

You’ve got focus this more Mark. Your point is, well, ambiguous.

I think it’s pretty clear where Church Tradition has to say about homosexual sex, but you act as if its also fimly established what the relationship between church and state is. If it’s so well-established, why is Meropolitan Jonah RADICALLY anti-capitalist, Thomas Hopko largely utilitaran when it comes to these questions, the Orthodox over at the Acton Institute radically capitalist, and some of the desert fathers close to anarchism? Why does it seem as if Augustine approved of legalized prostitution? Has the Church really made a definititve statement that St. Mary of Egypt should have been ideally locked up when she was a prostitute? Has the Church really thought deeply about the relationship between violence, force and the state? The Church doesn’t have a definititve position regarding war/pacifism, and given the strong link beween government and violene, wouldn’t this imply that there is still a lot to be worked out here?

Your statements about rights and marriage sound more Thomisitc more than they sound Orthodox. You may be absolutely right, but isn’t it fair to say there may more ambiguity in this area than you’re letting on?

I’m just trying to continue the conversation here.

I believe this is the link: http://www.davidjdunn.com/2012/06/12/my-year-as-a-pro-gay-orthodox-heretic/

To expand the point a bit: heterosexual marriage does not originate by a decree of the state. It is written in nature. For that reason the State has no authority to grant homosexual couplings the imprimatur of marriage. If it arrogates the right unto itself, then the state has decreed itself as the source and arbiter of all human relationships in the end and only two options remain: tyranny and/or the collapse of culture.

The Church – State distinction David employs is drawn from culture wars polemics. It’s sloppy reasoning.

unknown,

To compare a person’s “opinion” to the criteria set forth in the Scripture, Partristical Teachings, Canons, and most importantly, the Traditions of the Church to “judge[ing] another person’s character” is silly. I would be quite interested in knowing the response of the priest so close to your heart as to what he would consider the “technical” term for opinion(s) termed in contradiction to the moral and theological teachings of the Church, as well as that which violates the Holy Tradition and lowers the threshold for Truth. My thought: “blasphemy.”

While your entire apology is très intéressant, I am as restless as a child gone to bed on Christmas Eve, awaiting Dr. Dunn’s reply – Alright, that was a lie! A cheap convention unworthy of this hallowed discussion… I am 100% ambivalent, unknown. For heaven’s sake, unknown, Dr. Dunn has the opportunity to come to Forgiveness Vespers with us. But apparently we are not as big enough or as influential enough as Huffington Post for him to forgive us!

I have to run, but for your reactive hot-hotheadedness, I recommend that for two weeks you kneel at the church door, requesting the prayers of everyone who enters that the “spirit of the need to chastize strangers” leave you. Trust I will kneel with you.

If you read the entire post/article, you know that David is not advocating gay marriage as a sacrament in the church. He is advocating for gay marriage as a civil right.

That’s the flaw Unknown. It’s a false distinction. Marriage is grounded in nature, and for the Christian it comes from God. The State and Church merely affirm what already exists, although each in its own way.

How so?

This entire conversation thread is a disgrace to the church. It sounds to me like an ambush of a fellow brother in Christ.

Michael,

I am curious as to how you became a theologian since you seem to be able to determine who is and isn’t one. Also, I find it a quick judgment to determine someone’s theology based on the school he or she attended. If David had been blasphemous in any way, shape, or form, I assure you that he would have been excommunicated from his parish. Saying that, he is a regular parish attender of his church.

I find it interesting that you judge David so quickly as a person and fellow brother in Christ when you do not know him. “Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother’s eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye?” God is the judge. If you are well-versed on the articles David has published, you know that David is not advocating gay marriage as a sacrament in the church. He is advocating for gay marriage as a civil right. As to your comment about advocating for women in the priesthood, St. Sophia held a conference/seminar that was devoted to this topic entirely. So, simply to place the thought out there to discuss, is NOT un-Orthodox. I am truly thankful that David’s children do not have to see our fellow brothers and sisters in Christ treating him in this manner. If David had the opportunity to attend Forgiveness Vespers with you, I know he would say to you…..”I forgive as God forgives.” Hopefully, you would do the same.

I would like to share a comment from a priest very close to my heart in response to David’s thoughts on gay marriage. Father said, “I have to say that I agree with much of what David said, but I also disagree with him on some points. I do NOT, however, take it to be at all blasphemous; I do find it to be a reasoned contribution to the discussion.”

I find it dichotomous that you seem to be so quick to judge another person’s character. “Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother’s eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye?” God is the judge. If you read the entire post/article, you know that David is not advocating gay marriage as a sacrament in the church. He is advocating for gay marriage as a civil right. I am truly thankful that David’s children do not have to see our fellow brothers and sisters in Christ treating him in this manner. If David had the opportunity to attend Forgiveness Vespers with you, I know he would say to you…..”I forgive as God forgives.” Hopefully, you would do the same.

I would like to share a comment from a priest very close to my heart in response to David’s thoughts on gay marriage. Father said, “I have to say that I agree with much of what David said, but I also disagree with him on some points. I do NOT, however, take it to be at all blasphemous; I do find it to be a reasoned contribution to the discussion.”