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Comments on: Table for one? https://www.aoiusa.org/table-for-one/ A Research and Educational Organization that engages the cultural issues of the day within the Orthodox Christian Tradition Thu, 15 Oct 2009 04:15:28 +0000 hourly 1 https://wordpress.org/?v=6.3.3 By: George Michalopulos https://www.aoiusa.org/table-for-one/#comment-6788 Thu, 15 Oct 2009 04:15:28 +0000 https://www.aoiusa.org/?p=3822#comment-6788 Cynthia, try Tacitus. Otherwise, it may be apocryphal.

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By: cynthia curran https://www.aoiusa.org/table-for-one/#comment-6787 Thu, 15 Oct 2009 02:53:55 +0000 https://www.aoiusa.org/?p=3822#comment-6787 George,I believe so, it was Tiberius, I’m looking at a fast look at Suetonius’s life of him and have not found that quote.

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By: George Michalopulos https://www.aoiusa.org/table-for-one/#comment-6777 Wed, 14 Oct 2009 06:34:12 +0000 https://www.aoiusa.org/?p=3822#comment-6777 Thanks for the words of encouragement. I’ll get to work on it! Soon, I hope.

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By: Chistopher https://www.aoiusa.org/table-for-one/#comment-6775 Wed, 14 Oct 2009 06:31:13 +0000 https://www.aoiusa.org/?p=3822#comment-6775 Thanks for the thoughts George. Your post with some context and little expansion would make a good essay…

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By: George Michalopulos https://www.aoiusa.org/table-for-one/#comment-6774 Wed, 14 Oct 2009 06:02:14 +0000 https://www.aoiusa.org/?p=3822#comment-6774 Cynthia, wasn’t it Tiberius who said “It is better to be feared than loved”?

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By: cynthia curran https://www.aoiusa.org/table-for-one/#comment-6769 Wed, 14 Oct 2009 02:31:33 +0000 https://www.aoiusa.org/?p=3822#comment-6769 George is of course correct on all of this history, neither the Caesars nor the Herodians well always good rulers.Tiberius was worst in his later years when he allow Sejanus too much influence in his later years. Tiberius was different as a young man, he had loved Vispania but Augustus force him to marry his adulterous daughter Julia. And alas, in his old age he turn to perverisons.

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By: George Michalopulos https://www.aoiusa.org/table-for-one/#comment-6747 Tue, 13 Oct 2009 06:00:29 +0000 https://www.aoiusa.org/?p=3822#comment-6747 Christopher, right off the top of my head I can quote four Scriptural sources (although not chapter/verse, forgive me):

1. Jesus cried over Jerusalem. “Jerusalem, Jerusalem…but you would have me not.”

2. St Paul said: “Pray for the Emperor.” Also: “The king does not hold the sword in vain.”

3. St Peter said: “Fear God, honor the king, love man.”

4. John the Baptist told soldiers who came to him what they could do to become better soldiers: “do not extort, be content with your wages, etc.”

The first passage may be more opaque but it is clear that Jesus was a Jewish patriot in that he loved His nation and worried about its future (he predicted the destruction of the Temple). He preached primarily among the Jews, and only with reluctance to the non-Jews (he even called the Syrian woman who begged him to cure her daughter, “a dog”). He paid taxes to the state, the Temple, and obeyed its laws. And let’s not forget, He accepted the legitmaacy of the state when He submitted to arrest and execution. He didn’t have to die, He could have escaped into the Judean desert, gathered an army, and come back to try and lead an insurrection.

As far as John the Baptist, he did not delegitimize their occupation. Far from it, he saw it as a necessary and good thing in and of itself. Notice for example, no prostitute came to him asking how to be a “better prostitute.” Let’s develop this further: no abortionist came to him asking how to be a better abortionist. Clearly, if there was something intrinsically wrong with the profession of arms, John would have said for them to beat their swords into plowshares, or some such.

When we get to Paul, we must understand the context of what and who he was talking about. Quite probably, when Paul said “pray for the emperor,” the emperor in question was probably Caius (also known as the madman Caligula). Even if it had not been this particular monster, Caligula’s predecessor (Tiberius) was a bloodthirsty man and notorious pederast. Even if we take the position that Paul was talking about the king of Judea, we are talking about one of the Herodians, men who were monstrous on their own. (In fact, from about 40-55 AD, Judea was completely independent, the last Roman garrison had left a little after the crucifixion of Jesus. They were only brought back in many years later when it became clear that the Judea was becoming unstable.)

Forgive me for the history lesson, but the implication of Scripture alone is that we should love our respective nations. Besides, it’s logical: if you don’t love your country, how can you love the people who are in it? I realize we are called to love all men, but if you can’t begin with the ones you see, then you’re really not a philanthropist, are you? Besides, all nations (legally constituted ones anyway) create benefits for their citizens, things like the rule of law, roads, schools, public safety, etc. These are good things. If nothing else, the state restrains evil. I believe St Augustine was a premier political theorist but I think there are other Church Fathers as well who talk about the necessity of patriotism. (Not nationalism, which is a type of idolatry.)

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By: Greg https://www.aoiusa.org/table-for-one/#comment-6740 Tue, 13 Oct 2009 03:28:08 +0000 https://www.aoiusa.org/?p=3822#comment-6740 In reply to Dean Calvert.

Its Not That Easy Being Green.

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By: cynthia curran https://www.aoiusa.org/table-for-one/#comment-6738 Tue, 13 Oct 2009 01:45:49 +0000 https://www.aoiusa.org/?p=3822#comment-6738 Probably, the last Byzantne Emperor Constantine XI, I believe that he stated that it is good to die for Country and Emperor and God. He certainly died for Country or city-state and God.

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By: Christopher https://www.aoiusa.org/table-for-one/#comment-6737 Tue, 13 Oct 2009 01:27:10 +0000 https://www.aoiusa.org/?p=3822#comment-6737 Nationalism and secularism are both non-spiritual at their cores (notice I did not say “patriotism,” we are called as Christians to be patriotic).

Mr. Michalopulos (or anyone else),

Do you have any Orthodox sources for this? I believe you to be correct, and have found Christian defenses of patriotism from Saint Clive (C.S. Lewis) and Chesterton to name two, but don’t have much to go on from an Orthodox point of view. Fr. Webster touches on it in his “The Virtue of War” but his main theme of course is refuting the “lesser evil” philosophy.

In any case, I would be interested in any Orthodox thinkers you could point me to.

Thanks in advance!

Christopher

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By: Greg https://www.aoiusa.org/table-for-one/#comment-6715 Mon, 12 Oct 2009 15:16:28 +0000 https://www.aoiusa.org/?p=3822#comment-6715 In reply to George Michalopulos.

George,

Thanks for the reply.

Greg

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By: George Michalopulos https://www.aoiusa.org/table-for-one/#comment-6684 Sun, 11 Oct 2009 05:30:05 +0000 https://www.aoiusa.org/?p=3822#comment-6684 This may be the logical end-result of nationalism, that is to say the incipient nationalism that was somewhat justified in the recreation of the Balkan Orthodox kingdoms but which became co-opted by the governments in question. Nationalism and secularism are both non-spiritual at their cores (notice I did not say “patriotism,” we are called as Christians to be patriotic). The Russian Orthodox Church paid for their subservience to the Romanov political agenda by being persecuted by the Bolsheviks. I fear that the CoG and the EP (and us here in the US) are in store for a more insidious persecution, one from which is not violent but from which our Churches may not recover.

Please listen to Fr Thomas Hopko’s lecture “When Bishops Disappoint.” In the last days, the Church will exist but only as a “form of religion,” not as “the religion.” Bishops will still dress in their robes and swing censers, but theology will give way to political pieties (see the latest idiocies from Arb Puhalo). This has already happened in most all the major mainstream Protestant denominations. They are just as political and as wedded to the prevailing political ethos as the ROC bishops ever were (in fact, far more so). But they think because they are “compassionate” and “caring” that they are more in the spirit of Jesus than the more retrograde “fundamentalists.”

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By: Fr. Johannes Jacobse https://www.aoiusa.org/table-for-one/#comment-6675 Sat, 10 Oct 2009 21:00:37 +0000 https://www.aoiusa.org/?p=3822#comment-6675 The Church is not a movement, unlike environmentalism. You wonder if they are getting everything confused.

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By: Andrew https://www.aoiusa.org/table-for-one/#comment-6669 Sat, 10 Oct 2009 18:10:30 +0000 https://www.aoiusa.org/?p=3822#comment-6669 In reply to George Michalopulos.

George,

You know what caught me the other day. I went to the GOA website and there is a invitation to “Join the Movement” and follow the Green Patriarch on facebook and twitter. Join the Movement? Since when is the Church a movement?

More and more I think there a total breakdown of the basic fundamentals of the faith in the leadership of the GOA and the Phanar. The choice of words at the GOA is both startling and tragic. The ability to communicate the faith has been compromised.

The light of Christ does not come from an energy efficient Light Bulb. This is not the faith people gave up their lives for.

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By: George Michalopulos https://www.aoiusa.org/table-for-one/#comment-6659 Sat, 10 Oct 2009 06:26:29 +0000 https://www.aoiusa.org/?p=3822#comment-6659 re the Big O getting the peace prize: can’t you just feel the peace just breaking out all over?

Seriously, Andrew, you’ve got a point, maybe even hit the nail on the head. I’m convinced that Oslo gave Obama the prize as a bribe to get out of Afghanistan, otherwise, if he listens to McChrystal and sends in another 40,000 men, the Oslo committee will look like fools. (not that they don’t already.)

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