Anyway, I have a feeling that this whole scheme was worked out privately btw Erdogan and the EP w/out any input at all from the assorted flunkies at the Phanar. It’s got a “fly by the seat of the pants” aroma about it. Not well thought out, and divorced from the reality of the majority of Greek laymen who have enjoyed at least 8 generations of freedom from dhimmitude.

This is almost Bidenesque in its creation. I’ve had a sneaking feeling for a long time that the current slate of dhimmis who run the Phanar have forgotten –or more likely, never knew–what it’s like to be a free man or preach a robust Christian message. I think the game, the process, what have you, has become the end and not the means.

Now there’s a reason to have all the Greek bishops sign up for Turkish citizenship!!! Let’s see…Seargant Methodios, Captain Savas, Colonel Iakovos, and Private First Class (in training) Nicholas.

…talk about poetic justice.

At first I thought this was outrageous, but I’m beginning to see the merits of the idea. This could do more for Orthodox unity in this country than OCL has been able to accomplish in years.

This is too funny…are you sure it’s not an April Fool’s joke?

C’mon….you couldn’t make this stuff up!!!

Best Regards,
Dean

By Daniel Steinvorth in Istanbul

As European opposition to EU membership for Turkey grows, Ankara is looking to forge closer ties to its neighbors. Turkey wants to once again become a leading power in the Middle East — but its relationship with Israel may suffer as a result.

He was the last heir to the throne of the Ottoman Empire, a major power that controlled large parts of Europe, North Africa and the Middle East for centuries. But Prince Osman Ertugrul Osmanoglu was a prince without a country, and he was stateless for much of his life. When Turkish officers proclaimed the republic in 1924, they expelled Osmanoglu and his entire family. It wasn’t until 2004 that the exiled prince was granted Turkish citizenship.

The prince died in Istanbul on Sept. 23, at the age of 97, and the republic that had once banished him became reconciled with Osmanoglu. The guests at the funeral service included four cabinet ministers from the conservative Islamic AKP government, a deputy minister, several members of parliament, Istanbul’s governor and the city’s chief of police. Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan also sent his condolences — privately. It was a rare show of republican appreciation for Turkey’s Ottoman legacy.

Many Turks today believe that true greatness lies in the imperial past — and that this past is no longer to be found exclusively in the West. Europe, with its fondness for criticizing Turkey, is increasingly become yesterday’s ideal. “Neo-Ottomanism” is in vogue in Turkey, as evidenced by an exhibition at a new history museum that opened in Istanbul at the beginning of the year, a museum commission by Erdogan when he was still the mayor of Istanbul. An enormous panorama painting at the museum depicts the Ottoman conquest of Istanbul in 1453, complete with a soundtrack of cannon thunder and war cries piped through the loudspeakers.

More …

http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/0,1518,660635,00.html#ref=nlint

John, these words ring true. I was holding out some hope that this arrangment could possibly work but I think you clearly proved that cannot be the case. I hope you will use this post as a springboard for an article. We do not need a Church controlled by Turkish Authorities. If I was Greece (or any other supporting group) and heard this I would restrict funds to the Patriarchate

Amen lego Eimein! Or, what if the EP had said in his remarks about the Russian mission in Alaska? Instead, he overlooked an entire century of Orthodox evangelism –and a successful one at that.

Theodoros, my mother’s ancestry being from Asia Minor, I am acutely aware of the sorrows of the Christian peoples in Turkey. It does no good however to endlessly play the victim card. We know about the suffering of the pogrom in 1955 and how patriarchal institutions were decimated.

The question however now is: why is the EP (a man of Greek heritage) so willingly carrying water for the Turkish regime?

We cannot have it both ways, i.e. endlessly cite the litany of suffering in Istanbul, but then trying to expand the number of Greeks (and we are talking only of Greeks here) to that same font of suffering.

There is a cliche that states “insanity is defined as doing the same thing over and over again hoping someday to acheive a different result.”

The EPs of the past had their chance, they could have evangelized the Turkish nation, or at least attempted to. Instead, they retreated to their ghetto and held their noses up in contempt against all other non-Greek Orthodox populations, crying for their help when it was needed. Nobody is fooled.

As a Greek, I am revolted by the thought of any Greek bishop (even if they are non-entities like many in the GOA) renouncing his American citizenship and taking Turkish citizenship. This would be worse than Esau giving away his birthright for some lentils, at least Esau was famished from a long day of hunting. We Greeks like to think that our civilization informed the American democratic experiment, how then in good conscience could a Greek-American bishop throw that (and his freedoms away) for the thin gruel of the ecumenical throne?

Theodoros,

Thank you for your sobering words.

One of the things I carry with me from my time of service as a priest in the GOA is an awareness of the depth of suffering of the EP at the hands of the Turkish government. Yes, the Greek government does what it can, but as you point out, Turkey has much of the West backing it. This for me is one of the great frustrations with the Orthodox Church in this country–we need to be defending the rights of our Orthodox brethern (and others) who are suffering persecution.

Part of this must be, I think, a robust defense of the political freedoms we take for granted in this country. Not simply the freedoms enshrined in the US Constitution’s Bill of Rights but also the rule of law and an understanding of the limited role of government. The religious freedom is not of benefit to the individual believer but also to the society as a check against our own worse tendencies to enact laws that by oppress some degrade us all.

Unfortunately there seems to be little appreciation among many in the Church for the classical American understanding of a secular order. This extends, I must say, not simply to a knee jerk rejection of the Enlightenment and the argument for a limited government but also (and in someways more worrisome) the indifference and even hostility to the notion that the rule of law is also essential to the internal life of the Church. We undermine our own prophetic office when we neglect to govern our Church life according to the principles of justice and fairness.

We cannot as a Church simply be one more pressure group. Yes, by all means, let us make our case for the Gospel in the public square and the halls of government. But we cannot forget that first and foremost we make this case in the human heart. None of this we can do, however, if we are ourselves not committed to Christ and the Gospel.

As for Russia, we are in agreement–they would not tolerate the mistreatment of a Russian EP. While this is to there credit, it would be more to their credit if the they showed at least some concern for the rights of the Ecumenical Throne vis-a-vis the Turkish government. Yes there are territorial disputes between Moscow and Constantinople, but it seems to me (and what do I know) that these disagreements ought not to get in the way of the MP advocating on behalf of the EP both with the Russian government and, through the government, Turkey. Sometimes I think there is too much politics in the Church; other days I think there is not enough.

Again, thank you for your reminder of the suffering Church in Constantinople.

In Christ,

+FrG

Amen, Amen, Amen

You are exactly correct. We need more pastors and less pardon the expression ass kissing!

Theodoros — Your point is very well taken. Imagine the support, and deep bond of love, that the Ecumenical Patriarchate could have engendered over the years simply by being the Church. I know many Americans of Greek descent who are fed up with the trite ethnic “Hellenism” that we get out of New York. It might play in Astoria, it doesn’t play in Peoria. Orthodox Christians in the GOA are in need of the Gospel of Jesus Christ, not more lectures about the UN Copenhagen framework. Be the Church!

If we had pastors who were more interested in mission and evangelism, instead of kow-towing to whomever is in power in Washington, we would have a groundswell of support for Constantinople. We would respond to bishops who truly care about their flock. Instead, what do we get? We get more lavish New York dinners for a couple hundred Archons dressed up in funny sport coats and chintzy medals like they’re at an Elks Club initiation.

What’s more, the other Orthodox jurisdictions in America would support the patriarchate as well, if they were only treated like brothers and sisters in Christ. Imagine the effect if, on his recent trip, Bartholomew had taken a couple days to hold a two-day outdoor youth rally — anywhere but on the East Coast — with all the SCOBA bishops at his side. Imagine that. Instead, we get lavish dinners at Coca-Cola headquarters, conferences for environmentalists, and endless lobbying in Washington.

This is a very well stated commentary, but one clarification.
The GOA does not represent the Greek American community. Greek
Americans have legitimate rights and interests as American citizens
to lobby and ensure that the US government recognize international
law, religious freedom, and human rights with regard to Greece and
Cyprus, as well as the Armenian Genocide.

Several decades of the US government appeasing Turkey has only led
to anti-Americanism in Turkey. The Turkish Islamic government and
military curse and condemn the United States.

Ankara is in the midst of forming alliances with Syria and Iran, and
are threatening the State of Israel.

It is profoundly unfortunate that Washington never spoke up for the
Greek Christians of Constantinople since 1955 when that community
was targeted for elimination by the Turkish governments.

It is an American interest to reduce its dependence on Turkey which is
now becoming Iran’s ally. Also, Turkey is a sponsor of terrorism as
can be seen by the terrorist groups it has sponsored in the occupied
territories of Cyprus and Turkey itself.

Greece and America fought side by side in both World Wars, against
the Communists in Korea, and during the Cold War.

There is nothing wrong with the Greek Americans looking to become a
bridge between America and Greece who have always been, and should
be partners again in the War on Terror.

Theodoros

Father Gregory,

It is not that Greece has not responded to the attacks on the
Ecumenical Patriarchate. Greece is a small country heavily reliant
on the United States.

In September 1955, the Turkish government instigated a violent
pogrom (much like Krystaalnacht) against the Greek community.
Greek Churches, homes, and businesses were all wiped out in a
single day. A community of 100,000 that had been living in the
lands of their ancestors were made homeless in one night.

Greek men were beaten, women were raped etc.. A 90 year old priest
named Chrysanthos Mannas was doused with gasoline and burned alive.
A Metropolitan was died from injuries sustained after being brutally
beaten.

The Patriarchal Cemetary was desecrated with the graves of
Ecumenical Patriarchs being ripped open and their bones scattered.
Churches were profaned in unspeakable ways and chalices were urinated
in.

Pictures of the desecrated Churches of the time are not pleasant to
watch.

Turkey had deliberately incited its criminal elements (with police
protection) to target the Greek community after bombing their own
consulate in Thessaloniki, Greece (birthplace of Mustafa Kemal
Turkey’s founder) to stir up anti-Greek hate.

In the aftermath of this, the United States and NATO refused to
condemn Turkey’s crimes and atrocities despite the justifiable
outrage on the part of the Greek government. There were no sanctions
over human rights violations imposed on Turkey or a threat to cut
off aid to Turkey.

Secretary of State John Foster Dulles wrote identical letters to the
Greek and Turkish Prime Ministers referring to the outrages as
“unhappy events” and discussed simply the necessity to maintain
NATO unity.

No condolences either to the Ecumenical Patriarch or to the Greek
government. In fact, the United States threatened to cut off aid to
Greece if Athens did not fall into line and reconcile with Turkey.

This has been the American policy with regard to Greece and Turkey
up to the present day, even while the Turks today have an Islamic
government and curse the United States in solidarity with the
Muslims of Iran, Syria, Iraq, and the Palestinians.

Greece is a small country and in no position to respond militarily
to a country like Turkey which has the whole western world behind it.

There are some on this forum who have stereotyped the Greeks as
a whole, unfairly. The Greek community in Turkey is small and they
love their Churches and shrines and protect them as much as they
can.

The Church of Greece does what it can, as does the Greek government.
I cannot say the same for the GOA which from what I can see does
very little.

I agree with you that the Russians would not tolerate the mistreatment
of a Russian Ecumenical Patriarch. Russia however is a very strong and
powerful country with a great military. The Turks fear them today
as they traditionally have.

The Greeks however have been left to fend for themselves and to
survive alone.

And for the record, do not judge the Greeks by the actions of the
GOA who are neither the true representatives of Hellenism or
Orthodoxy.

Theodoros