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Comments on: Pope: the Christian idea of the person a model for a cohesive society https://www.aoiusa.org/pope-the-christian-idea-of-the-person-a-model-for-a-cohesive-society/ A Research and Educational Organization that engages the cultural issues of the day within the Orthodox Christian Tradition Sat, 08 Aug 2009 03:59:52 +0000 hourly 1 https://wordpress.org/?v=6.3.3 By: Chrys https://www.aoiusa.org/pope-the-christian-idea-of-the-person-a-model-for-a-cohesive-society/#comment-5458 Sat, 08 Aug 2009 03:59:52 +0000 https://www.aoiusa.org/?p=3108#comment-5458 Father, I must agree with the above. If you prefer to speak, that would work fine. I am sure there are plenty of folks (myself included) who would be willing to work through a voice-to-text copy, edit it, and – where needed – ask for amplification. 🙂
As for the difference between the bureaucratic and the vocational, I think you have touched on a critical difference. Bureaucracies are self-referential and, at best, concerned with efficiency (usually defined as that which supports their own reason for being). A vocation, however, is God-given, “built into” the person, to be discerned. It requires prayerfulness, attention and a deep openness to and respect for the unique work that God may wish to do in and through the individual. Indeed, attending to one’s own – or to another’s – calling requires a “radical” openness to the God Who calls. This is a fundamentally different approach to life. Along these lines, one could see the Sadducees as eminently “bureaucratic,” the pharisees as the rule-keepers/referees, and Christ as essentially “vocational” in His focus and mission – calling each to follow God’s unique will no matter the cost or consequence.

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By: Chris Banescu https://www.aoiusa.org/pope-the-christian-idea-of-the-person-a-model-for-a-cohesive-society/#comment-5457 Sat, 08 Aug 2009 01:36:00 +0000 https://www.aoiusa.org/?p=3108#comment-5457 Fr. Gregory,

Echoing everyone else’s perspectives on your eloquent and wisdom-filled posts… Why not start with some articles on various topics and have them posted? I’m sure http://www.OrthodoxyToday.org and http://www.OrthodoxNet.com would be more than happy to share them with our large audiences. Already, just from the exchanges here, I see enough material for a good piece. Just a thought….

PS – I share your preference for speaking. Writing is a developed discipline that requires many hours of really hard work.

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By: Fr Gregory https://www.aoiusa.org/pope-the-christian-idea-of-the-person-a-model-for-a-cohesive-society/#comment-5456 Fri, 07 Aug 2009 20:28:42 +0000 https://www.aoiusa.org/?p=3108#comment-5456 dear Michael & George,

Thank you both for your kind words. As for a book, well, I will have to see what the future holds. Personally, and contrary to how it may appear, I prefer public speaking to writing. 🙂

In Christ,

+FrG

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By: George Michalopulos https://www.aoiusa.org/pope-the-christian-idea-of-the-person-a-model-for-a-cohesive-society/#comment-5455 Fri, 07 Aug 2009 15:04:39 +0000 https://www.aoiusa.org/?p=3108#comment-5455 P.s., I agree with Michael, you should expand this into a book.

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By: George Michalopulos https://www.aoiusa.org/pope-the-christian-idea-of-the-person-a-model-for-a-cohesive-society/#comment-5454 Fri, 07 Aug 2009 15:04:02 +0000 https://www.aoiusa.org/?p=3108#comment-5454 Fr Greg,

you have put into a few paragraphs what has been inchoate in me for a long time, but was not able to express as eloquently as you have. I’ve always felt that education is the province of the Church as are all “welfare” aspects of the gov’t. The Founding Fathers beleived that the federal gov’t should have only few ennumerated powers. The rest were to be left to the people and their “small platoons” (in Burke’s phrase).

I would go one step further and call such elitist attitudes, the “tyranny of the experts.” This goes to the heart of republican governance: only a person who is upright, pious, and strives to be moral can serve as a “citizen.” Republicanism creates a form of government that enables such citizens to serve the polis as a militia, jurors, electors, and magistrates if called upon to do so.

It is incumbent upon Christian parents to recall civic virtue and homeschooling or being the primary educator of one’s child is the necessary first step.

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By: Michael Bauman https://www.aoiusa.org/pope-the-christian-idea-of-the-person-a-model-for-a-cohesive-society/#comment-5453 Fri, 07 Aug 2009 14:05:24 +0000 https://www.aoiusa.org/?p=3108#comment-5453 Fr. Gregory, what a wonderful post. You ought to expand that approach into a book. With your pastoral experience I’m sure you have a lot of material. It would benefit the Church.

The phone call did not change our resolve to do what we felt was best for our child. The phone call did have a chilling effect on our ability to integrate what we were doing into the parish. It was my first inkling that dealing with Engelwood was not pleasant unless you agreed with the already established agenda and the ‘Friends of Philip’ ruled–believe me there was an implied threat in the tone of the conversation as well as the specifics.

The director was less offended by our homeschooling than by the suggestion that the Church ought to produce materials specifically for parents to use in their homes to help educate their children in the faith, rather than focusing on the centralized Sunday school programs.

One of the fundamental ideas that attracted me to the Church in the first place was the clear understanding of the human person in community each affirming and supporting the quest for holiness in the other. Being told by a ‘person in authority’ that only centralized, expert authority was any good, shocked me. In the fifteen years since that phone call, you are the first person to whom I have talked that really gets it. Thank you.

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By: Fr Gregory https://www.aoiusa.org/pope-the-christian-idea-of-the-person-a-model-for-a-cohesive-society/#comment-5451 Fri, 07 Aug 2009 12:33:19 +0000 https://www.aoiusa.org/?p=3108#comment-5451 Michael,

Thinking about the comment you quote above (# 30), when I visit children in the hospital I encourage their parents to be zealous advocates for their children. I remind them, “Your child’s doctor is expert in ALL children, you are an expert in YOUR child.” The idea that parents are not competent to educate their children flies in the face both of natural law and the theology of the Church.

God entrusts children to parents and it is parents who are called and established by God as the primary educators of their children. In fulfilling their vocation as educators of their own children parents choice to form educational cooperatives that allow them to work together with other parents. They may as well seek out the assistance of other adults who, whether parents themselves or not, are able to make up for any deficiencies that parents or group of parents may have in offering instruction to their children. BUT regardless of the circumstances, parents are the primary educators of children and this responsibility cannot and must not be surrendered to another adult except in the most extreme of circumstances.

Forgive me going on like this, but having served as an interim priest for four parishes where there had been “problems” of one sort or another, I have come to see that too often clergy do not see ourselves as serving the laity in fulfilling their own vocations. This vocation has too facets.

One, there is the general call–rooted in baptism–to sanctify the world. By virtue of our baptism we are called to conform not only our lives but the world of business, culture, education, etc., to the Gospel of our Lord, God and Savior Jesus Christ.

Second, and as I mentioned above, we are called to discern the specific obligations we have within the concrete circumstance of our daily lives. By no stretch of the imagination can this obligation exclude the education of the children God has entrusted in His mercy to parents.

In any case, my call as a priest is based on my first call given in baptism. It is only to the degree that I am faithful to my obligation to sanctify the world that I am able to fulfill the call confirmed in ordination. What is that call? To help the laity–corporately and individually–to discern and fulfill their own vocation in both its general and specific details.

Having done this in each parish I’ve been asked to get back on its feet I can attest from my own experience (to say nothing of the testimony of Holy Scripture and the Fathers of the Church), if I focus on what is essential–helping the laity entrusted to my care to discover & fulfill their own vocations–then the parish will be healthy not only theologically and spiritually, but also psychological and socially. And a healthy community will grow and foster new vocations to marriage, ordination, monastic life as well as attract new Orthodox Christians and “reverts” to the faith as well.

BUT, none of this can happen when, as the comment you quote implies, we fail to acknowledge and serve each other as we discern and pursue our personal vocation. I’ve said it before, for all that our liturgical and ascetical life is theologically sound, as long as our Church life continues to be bureaucratic and not vocational, we will fail. The second though we place fidelity to our personal vocations at the center of parish and diocesan life, in that moment we will experience the transformation of our parishes, our dioceses, our jurisdictions and (most importantly) our families and our personal lives.

Great thread folks–y’all are an inspiration to me.

In Christ,

+FrG

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By: Michael Bauman https://www.aoiusa.org/pope-the-christian-idea-of-the-person-a-model-for-a-cohesive-society/#comment-5441 Thu, 06 Aug 2009 02:31:10 +0000 https://www.aoiusa.org/?p=3108#comment-5441 Cynthia, whether Met. Philip is at all concerned with the how children are educated or not, I do not know. I only know what his long-time friend who was then head of the Archdiocesan Education Committee told me: “Parents are not competent to educate their own children, only professional educators (like him) are competent to do so”

He made a special call to me at my home in Wichita, Ks from his home in NY on a Saturday morning just to let me know how unacceptable my education of my own son was.

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By: cynthia curran https://www.aoiusa.org/pope-the-christian-idea-of-the-person-a-model-for-a-cohesive-society/#comment-5440 Thu, 06 Aug 2009 01:50:55 +0000 https://www.aoiusa.org/?p=3108#comment-5440 I mean his church.

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By: cynthia curran https://www.aoiusa.org/pope-the-christian-idea-of-the-person-a-model-for-a-cohesive-society/#comment-5438 Thu, 06 Aug 2009 01:48:26 +0000 https://www.aoiusa.org/?p=3108#comment-5438 Well, I can’t belive that Phillip is oppose to private schools. I know of someone that has read a book on politics authored by leftest Jim Wallis that is not oppose to an Orthodox school and even allows the Lutherans to use some of the facilities at his to have their high school.

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By: Chrys https://www.aoiusa.org/pope-the-christian-idea-of-the-person-a-model-for-a-cohesive-society/#comment-5433 Wed, 05 Aug 2009 22:13:59 +0000 https://www.aoiusa.org/?p=3108#comment-5433 Please forgive me. The comment should read:
If we “have” the Truth but are NOT conformed to it in the work-a-day world, it only condemns us.

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By: Chrys https://www.aoiusa.org/pope-the-christian-idea-of-the-person-a-model-for-a-cohesive-society/#comment-5432 Wed, 05 Aug 2009 22:11:44 +0000 https://www.aoiusa.org/?p=3108#comment-5432 Michael, well put. It is VERY disappointing to hear that you received that kind of response from the head of the education committee. In my more antagonistic moments, I want to ask such folks why they bother going to Church. After all, if it’s not important enough to guide the cultivation of our children, it must not be all that important. (Just curious, did this person realize that he was putting a millstone around his neck when he condemned the children in his Church to such an impoverished education?)

I know what you mean about professional educators as well. My wife is a tenured professor of education who encounters this attitude all too often. There is broad recognition that government schools are failing, but the inability to recognize the importance of tradition on the formation of the child leaves them with little to look at other than techniques. (That despite the overwhelming evidence that family culture plays a game-changing role in the process.) As converts, we wanted to make sure that the school was/is permeated, guided and defined by the faith. As you note, if this is the Truth, as we claim to believe, there is no other choice. We were particularly concerned to make sure that the process supported the content. Too often folks (especially converts like me) tend to treat faith like a concept. Yet the beauty and riches of the Orthodox ascetical tradition, evident in its ability to consistently produce saints, turns this on its head. The process must reflect and be conformed to the claims of the content. A concrete example: if we recognize the eternal verity of the faith, then our only posture can be humility. Love, discipline, humility, participation – all are vital in the formation process. If we “have” the Truth but are conformed to it in the work-a-day world, it only condemns us.

I particularly agree with your comments about the lukewarm. All “systems” are really designed to serve the peak of the bell curve. Those on the high performing second or third standard deviation will often succeed no matter what the system is. (They may not succeed as much, but they will succeed.) Those on the low performing second or third standard deviation will probably struggle no matter how amenable the system is. Those in the middle – the great vast majority of us – are very much affected by the system. We OWE it to “them” as act act of obedient stewardship to do what we can for their edification and blessing. We simply don’t have the right to bury our “talents.”

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By: Michael Bauman https://www.aoiusa.org/pope-the-christian-idea-of-the-person-a-model-for-a-cohesive-society/#comment-5423 Wed, 05 Aug 2009 14:05:36 +0000 https://www.aoiusa.org/?p=3108#comment-5423 Quite a few years ago, the Orthodox community where I live investigated the possibility of starting an Orthodox school. Three things sank the project: 1) It was run by folks who are professional educators and were using the prevailing government/private school model; 2) With ten people in the room you had at least 12 ideas of what an Orthodox school would look like (some insisted that it should not have anything overtly Orthodox as that would be offensive to non-Orthodox); 3) many of the parents were afraid that their children would become less competitive in the world for the professional positions they had in mind for them.

My late wife and I had one son. We homeschooled him K-12 despite the lack of other Orthodox homeschoolers and the overt hostility of the head of the Antiochian education committee (a +Philip crony) at the time to such a project. Being a committed government schooler himself, he thought parents were incompetent to teach their children even in matters of the faith. He actually said that to me.

We have to have a better, more cohesive understanding of Chrisitan anthropology that includes a renewed focus on salvation. I don’t think we’d do half the things we do individually and corporately if we really believed our salvation was at stake. We need to remember the fate of the lukewarm.

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By: cynthia curran https://www.aoiusa.org/pope-the-christian-idea-of-the-person-a-model-for-a-cohesive-society/#comment-5421 Wed, 05 Aug 2009 03:04:00 +0000 https://www.aoiusa.org/?p=3108#comment-5421 The Byzantines never developed private religous schools like the Catholics did in western europe during the middle ages. In fact, the so-called university of Constantople was state ran and dealt with medicene and law and rhetoric. The state unitl the great plague of 542 subsidized teacher salaries and doctor salaries. This doesn’t mean that wealthy citizens didn’t have private tutors for their children or Doctors they paid thru their own money. The welfare state of the Byzantines resembles George Bush’s faith based program. You had both govenment money from the emperors and money from average citizens to the very wealthly that contributed to it hospices, old men homes, boys homes, or convents and monasteries that raised expose children. There was even a convent for prostitues who left their old life behind. And not all the great churches were built by the emperors. There was a church built by Antica Juliana, a very wealthy contempoary of the emperor Justinian that was the largest church before he had Hagia Sophia rebuilt. Anyway, the Byzantines had a mixed system and their descendants who admire them a lot aren’t as convince sometimes of private involvement in education, or medicine or the welfare state. As for sometimes, being anti-west, I think that as George stated before, it has to do with siding with the Democratic Party since FDR help their grandparents in the new world. However, FDR was an old Democratic and wasn’t Anti-American or Anti-West as much as the current party is.

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By: Chris Banescu https://www.aoiusa.org/pope-the-christian-idea-of-the-person-a-model-for-a-cohesive-society/#comment-5420 Wed, 05 Aug 2009 01:53:42 +0000 https://www.aoiusa.org/?p=3108#comment-5420 Amen Chrys! You summarized it quite eloquently. This paragraph especially bears repeating since it encompasses much wisdom and insight:

Given the clearly eschatological nature of the monastic witness, I am continually surprised how few Orthodox seem to understand that the faith is essential to a full and proper education, that the public schools are unequipped to resist moral relativism (and often promote it), that “the world” is not and will never be a friend of the faith, that social privileges are worthless compared to the knowledge of Christ (Phil. 3), and that – in the end – what matters most is who your child becomes because that will last for eternity.

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