George: You are dreaming if you think Pat. Irinej was trying to send any message, let alone the one you suggest. I am intimatelly familiar with the Serbian hierarchy’s position regarding the OCA.

I also know +Jonah, and he would never put himself in the middle of the picture. I also know how patriarchs act, and I can assure you that the hospitality of the Greeks are legendary as well. But if +Jonah had shown up at Holy Cross to visit with the EP, he would have even been placed close to the broom closet when it came time for a picture.

Everytime I read about this stuff, I curse a little bit in my mind. Lord Forgive me for what I am about to say, but …

I think when we spend so much time pursuing status on one end, and then denying it on the other, it speaks a thousand words about our “sickness(es)”.

When we put status before Truth, then we’ve gone astray, then our clergy are no longer shepherds rather hirelings. I think this has been stated previously, but I believe overall, any regional church that can trace Her roots back to the Apostles (Apostolic succession), practices/teaches sound Orthodox Theolgoy, and resides within a sovergn territory with Hierarchs that are, first through the prism of Orthodox doctrine, loyal citizens and good representatives of that territory (i.e. Solzhenitsyn’s definition of patriotism), should be viewed as autocephalous. And, none of this should supersede the fact that any Autocephalous Orthodox Church, on any given Sunday, is going to have problems that make others take a double-take, and that the only way to solve those problems is through community and co-celebration of the Divine Liturgy with other Autocephalous Churches. Any Bishop that doesn’t understand, accept, or practice this should be asked to retire to a monastery immediately, or put on a time out, or something …

Mutual recognition and dignity, which requires mercy and forgivness over form, between Churches and then Co-celebration of Christ’s Mysteries and constant community is the surest way, in my opinion the only way, to break through ethnophyletism, schism, and heresy. When you do this, you’re actually practicing being the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church, and not just declaring it, and you’re putting Christ before anything else, like you’re supposed to.

George: Jonah was not invited by the Patriarch for a pow-wow. He merely showed up, knowing the Patriarch was there. The Patriarch, being a good Serb, showed and confered hospitality on another bishop. Nothing more and nothing less. Trust me; I know about what I speak on this matter. As for the picture position, I assure you the Patriarch, whom I have known for well over 20 years thought nothing of picture position. He is that kind of guy. A guest was present and it was natural that the guest be flanked by the two hospitable hosts, the Patriarch on Jonah’s left and my former bishop Longin on Jonah’s right. I assure you the Patriarch was not telegraphing anything. A week earlier, after Liturgy, I sat on a sofa, in the middle, with the Patriarch on my right and his Deacon on my left having a pleasant conversation. I assure you that he was not telegraphing anything in that case either to an otherwise room full of clergy.

Alexander – I agree with everything you said – but not so much that the Greek Orthodox Church is pro-abortion, albeit some of their bishops and most of their political following are.

This is a good question. In what way can one consider the EP and the Jerusalem Patriarchate, with all their attendant scandals and petty jockeying, to be mature enough for autocephaly?

I think you have it backwards. Beyond Russia, there’s not much to the Orthodox world if shear numbers mean anything. It’s the Phanar and it omenogenic minions holding Orthodoxy hostage.

Romania, Serbia, Bulgaria, Georgia seem to be closer to Russia on these questions. There’s Anitioch of course. So, 3,000 Orthodox in Turkey, not many more in Jerusalem, a handful more in Alexandria and Cyprus. And a pro abortion Athenian Church. Whose holding whom hostage? The megalomania of a contortionist force-feeding a long discredited bastardization of the 28 Canon.

Nick, forgive me for misremembering his name. What I mean is that optics matter. The guy standing in the center is usually the star attraction. Personally, I feel that Patriarch Irinej was telegraphing a very important message: “+Jonah is the Metropolitan of an autocephalous church and I support him.”

Go with me on this: the Church of Serbia doesn’t recognize the OCA’s autocephaly. Why then did it meet with +Jonah and offer him such a prominent position?

Wisdom.

Are we ever really, mature for autocephaly? Are we ever really autocephalous?

Briton, as a member of the Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America I can say without hesitation that while is Moscow far from perfect it still has to take the lead in keeping the Ark of Salvation on an even keel and on course, otherwise the vainglory of Constantinople will steer her over the precipitous waterfall plunging her into the abyss of chaos.

I have no difficulty with the concept of primacy on an ecumenical level, and I even acknowledge that a mere primacy of honor devoid of an accompanying authority is something that has never existed in the Church’s history. However, for the last century beginning with Patriarch Meletios (Metaxakis), Constantinople’s perception of her own primacy has been so far off the mark it is literally embarrassing.

The Phanar still promotes its relatively recent, and I would add untenable, interpretation of the 28th canon of the Council of Chalcedon claiming that it gives Constantinople jurisdiction over all Orthodox Christian who live outside the geographical bounds of the ancient autocephalous Churches. Anyone who has actually read the canons without a predetermined agenda and is familiar with Church history knows this is absurd. The only way to arrive at that conclusion is via circular reasoning. It is prooftexting par excellence identical to Rome’s efforts to justify the papacy via the patristic texts, canons, etc.

Conciliarity is not just about checks and balances, its about achieving a genuine consensus by direct and honest discussion, which sometimes turns into conflict and drags on for years. Thank God for divergent opinions on these critical matters because it safeguards the Church from gradually embracing deviant beliefs and practices under the pretense of fidelity to the past, organic developments or good order.

Amen to that! Hopefully the Chambesy charade is over.

I was speaking to a venerable heiromonk I know, who has been around American Orthodoxy for a very long time. He personally knew Fr. Seraphim (Rose) as Eugene, and St. John the Wonder Worker as Archbishop John. I mentioned the OCA autocephaly controversy. He looked very sad and said, “We aren’t mature enough for autocephaly.” And he referenced the difficulties the OCA has had over the years–and that was before the + Jonah War broke out into the public realm.

I am not saying I agree with him, but this mess is very disheartening. If we can’t even manage to get past internecine administrative disputes, how can we hope to evangelize the country and create a united American Orthodox Church? And I fear it gives great encouragement to those who are not friends of the OCA.

I have been very pleased with + Jonah from afar. I am more than willing to give him my trust until proven that I shouldn’t. But I cannot possibly take a position about matters that are being fought in public on the Internet. That’s not where they belong.

Lord have mercy.

Briton, I must disagree with you. Regarding the entire charade in Chambesy, I’d like to say: “May its memory be forgotten!” A complete and total waste of time, unless it was interrupted by ski vacations in Gstaad or meetings at Davos.