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Comments on: Maybe I’m Just Too American For This Orthodox Church https://www.aoiusa.org/maybe-i%e2%80%99m-just-too-american-for-this-orthodox-church/ A Research and Educational Organization that engages the cultural issues of the day within the Orthodox Christian Tradition Fri, 18 Jun 2010 00:20:44 +0000 hourly 1 https://wordpress.org/?v=6.3.3 By: Isa Almisry https://www.aoiusa.org/maybe-i%e2%80%99m-just-too-american-for-this-orthodox-church/#comment-12358 Fri, 18 Jun 2010 00:20:44 +0000 https://www.aoiusa.org/?p=7009#comment-12358 In reply to Harry Coin.

In fact, the Commies tied themselves into a pretzel because they had to give him the Lenin Prize: his achievements were too spectacular to ignore (I’ve seen him cited as a surgeon in medical peer papers and thesises). They tried to break him of his “superstition” saying “esteemed doctor! Such a brilliant surgeon-you haven’t seen the soul in an operation have you?” He said “no, but neither I have I seen man’s emotions when I opened him up.” Or something like that.

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By: Harry Coin https://www.aoiusa.org/maybe-i%e2%80%99m-just-too-american-for-this-orthodox-church/#comment-12352 Thu, 17 Jun 2010 15:22:17 +0000 https://www.aoiusa.org/?p=7009#comment-12352 In reply to Eliot Ryan.

Eliot,

Wow. I’m really pleased to learn there was a bishop who also was an advanced medical professional. Really impressive of him. Not least too –speaks well of the church!

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By: Eliot Ryan https://www.aoiusa.org/maybe-i%e2%80%99m-just-too-american-for-this-orthodox-church/#comment-12351 Thu, 17 Jun 2010 15:15:43 +0000 https://www.aoiusa.org/?p=7009#comment-12351 In reply to Michael Bauman.

The Holy Spirit will find those people who will respond, no matter how few that is.

Allow no pride to dwell in you, but prove yourself humble and lowly … That should be easy if I recall my many sins, but sometimes I get forgetful.

Satans seeks to imitate, confuse and distort, even counterfeiting the Holy Spirit for unholy spirits. As we look at our human weakness and ignorance and compare them with wisdom of the one who was originally an angel of light we see that our only safety is in Christ.

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By: Eliot Ryan https://www.aoiusa.org/maybe-i%e2%80%99m-just-too-american-for-this-orthodox-church/#comment-12350 Thu, 17 Jun 2010 14:58:07 +0000 https://www.aoiusa.org/?p=7009#comment-12350 Harry:

I am inspired the church recognizes this holding up the example as saints of Cosmas and Damian ‘the unmercinary healers’.

The Church has more saints “unmercinary healers”. See:
The Life of Saint Luke of Simferopol and Crimea

Saint Luke, Bishop of Simferopol and Crimea, the Blessed Surgeon (+June 11, 1961)

Doctor of Medicine, Professor, and State Prize winner, since 1944 he was the Archbishop of Tambov and Michurinsk, and later of Simferopol and the Crimea. While he was serving the church as an Archbishop, he was also practicing as a surgeon and taught and published many books and articles on regional anesthesia and surgery. He is now known to be a world-famous pioneering surgeon.

St. Luke’s last words:

My children, very much do I entreat you,
Arm yourselves with the armor that God gives, That you may withstand the devil’s tricks.
You can’t imagine how evil he is.
We don’t have to fight with people but with rulers and powers, in effect the evil spirits.
Take care!
It’s no use to the devil for anyone to think and feel
that he is close to him.
A hidden and unknown enemy is more dangerous than a visible enemy.
O how large and terrible is the army of the demons.
How numberless is their black horde!
Unchanged, untiring, day and night, seeking to push all of us who believe in the name of Christ, to lure us on the road of unbelief, of evil and of impiety.
These unseen enemies of God have made their sole purpose, day and night to seek our destruction.
But do not be afraid, take power from the name of Jesus.

See also St Panteleimon.
Akathist to Great Martyr-Healer Panteleimon

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By: Harry Coin https://www.aoiusa.org/maybe-i%e2%80%99m-just-too-american-for-this-orthodox-church/#comment-12349 Thu, 17 Jun 2010 14:01:04 +0000 https://www.aoiusa.org/?p=7009#comment-12349 In reply to Harry Coin.

Isa,

I too have a personal appreciation for Alzheimer’s and wish all strength in the face of suffering or supporting others.

The thing that made Christ’s ’embracing His cross’ as you write so relevant is that He had a choice. He didn’t have to do it. The significance comes from the fact he could have said no but did not. It was a real choice. By contrast In theological language disease is an inherited consequence, against which we fight, if we choose, in our efforts toward theosis ‘from glory to glory’. We have real choices in how or whether to respond but not whether to decline the disease altogether. That’s an important difference.

I think that means, being we are baptised ‘reasoning sheep’, the moral obligation we have is to use that reasoning gift in its proper context– and battle the disease (through our own research, or donating and supporting, or improving life choices for better upkeep of ‘the temple’ we each live within) so as to lessen the adverse inheritance we pass along. This so as to make available through human effort higher ‘starting point’ possibilities for our children toward ‘theosis’ than we have — that is to say, stewardship. Of course, they might mess it up as so many of us have done with what we’ve been given. But, some will not and those make all the difference.

Such an effort, if made, adds meaning to our lives as it adds meaning to those honored forebears upon whose shoulders we stand and provides higher starting points for our legacies as well.

If you are sick, fight to add meaning if cure isn’t possible, add dignity in the face of it by adding information and using all available weapons against the disease for yourself and for the future. We’ve won about 50 years more for everyone over the last 100 years and that’s a start. Only a start. I am inspired the church recognizes this holding up the example as saints of Cosmas and Damian ‘the unmercinary healers’.

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By: George Michalopulos https://www.aoiusa.org/maybe-i%e2%80%99m-just-too-american-for-this-orthodox-church/#comment-12345 Thu, 17 Jun 2010 01:56:22 +0000 https://www.aoiusa.org/?p=7009#comment-12345 In reply to Michael Bauman.

Michael, excellent point, but it’s not our “American-ness” that is being inflexible, it’s our pridefullness that comes from our ethnocentricity. There’s a lot of things I find deplorable about American expressions of Christianity, but straight-talk, clarity, and practically are not part of them.

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By: Harry Coin https://www.aoiusa.org/maybe-i%e2%80%99m-just-too-american-for-this-orthodox-church/#comment-12341 Wed, 16 Jun 2010 21:43:58 +0000 https://www.aoiusa.org/?p=7009#comment-12341 In reply to Eliot Ryan.

A. Eliot wrote: ‘ To be Orthodox means to use all your strength and intellectual abilities to become humble before God’.

B. The Church Eliot writes of wrote the only statement beginning with I and said by everyone present every liturgy: ‘I Believe in One God…’

So, you know, I’ll keep A in mind but I’m going with B.

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By: Scott Pennington https://www.aoiusa.org/maybe-i%e2%80%99m-just-too-american-for-this-orthodox-church/#comment-12338 Wed, 16 Jun 2010 16:37:30 +0000 https://www.aoiusa.org/?p=7009#comment-12338 In reply to Fr. Johannes Jacobse.

“Maybe I’m just too American for this Orthodox Church.”

Actually, this is a very worthy question for all Orthodox in America to ask themselves seriously, not just rhetorically. Orthodoxy is not about freedom, it is about acquiring the Holy Spirit. It is not about fitting in to modern American culture since modern American culture has been in no way shaped by Orthodoxy.

We sometimes confuse the “gift of free will”, given by God to man, with political freedom. They are two totally different things. Obedience to moral law can and must be coerced. If you don’t believe it, then naturally you should work for the repeal of laws against theft or rape. The freedom God has given man is to be able to choose between good and evil. If man did not have this freedom, he would do only good because no other possibility would exist for him. Doing evil for man would be like dancing for a fish. On the other hand, even when there are moral laws in place, this “gift of free will” remains – – it’s just that there are then consequences for making the wrong choices, just as there were in the Garden.

“God has created us to be free. That’s why faith and obedience to God is never a matter of coercion. You are free to disbelieve. You are free to disobey.”

And God Himself struck down a couple in the Book of Acts who withheld property from the Church. God created us to be righteous and to give Him glory. He gave us freedom to choose good or evil. But this freedom is in the absolute sense I mentioned above. Political freedom is something else. If God wanted us to be free to choose evil without coercion, then why is there a hell, or the threat thereof in scripture?

“. . . those who justify coercion in the name of obedience violate the inherent dignity of the human person.”

Or, they might be seeking to govern human society so that it does not descend into an evil abyss of abortion, licentiousness, promiscuity, etc. Even coerced obedience has value for the wider society. It can create an environment where those learning how to be decent adults (children and adolescents) are not confused, disturbed and tempted by unseemly behavior or by behavior that challenges Christian presuppositions. It can also help adults to control their own passions by creating clear boundaries of acceptable conduct which reinforce their own sense of self discipline.

I see that the pre-Fourth of July “Spirit of ’76” is once again upon us.

Enlightenment Liberalism is anti-Orthodox. It sees humanity as the center of all things. Thus the rhetoric assumes that human beings, apart from being tied to a moral code, can exercise their freedom without awful, self-destructive consequences. This may have been true for a while when America was founded. Only the landed gentry could vote, a number of states had established churches and the ruling class was, in general, bound by a much more conservative code than exists at large in the masses today. I.e., Enlightenment Liberalism could work for awhile in a non-egalitarian society. Of course, when the old ethos forged under monarchy dissipated after a number of generations . . .

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By: Athanasia https://www.aoiusa.org/maybe-i%e2%80%99m-just-too-american-for-this-orthodox-church/#comment-12336 Wed, 16 Jun 2010 15:26:44 +0000 https://www.aoiusa.org/?p=7009#comment-12336 Harry wrote, “How can something that can’t be declined fit within the meaning of ‘opportunity’ or ‘offer’?”

Very easily. It’s all about attitude. One can choose to respond as a ‘victim,’ throw their angry and self-pity all around or one can choose to respond as Fr. Alexy did.

Geo wrote, “the dirty little secret is that we’re already “Protestantized,” and have been so since at least 1921 (organs, pews, no Confession, etc. ring a bell?),”

Yes, Geo that does ring a bell. The Orthodox church with the organ I declined to attend. 🙂 However, there is more than these ‘things’ that Protestantize a belief system. When Orthodoxy is reduced down to “I accept Jesus as my Lord and Savior” exclusive and jettisons 2/3rds of the Trinity – then it is protestantized imho.

I appreciated s-p’s “chill dude” post!

Off to get a sweetened lemonade with Isa.

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By: Michael Bauman https://www.aoiusa.org/maybe-i%e2%80%99m-just-too-american-for-this-orthodox-church/#comment-12335 Wed, 16 Jun 2010 14:31:29 +0000 https://www.aoiusa.org/?p=7009#comment-12335 If the Church is relying on “Americans” to be adaptable then we are in trouble because our human adaptability is not the issue. It is the ability of the Church as the Body of Christ to be in all places and fill all things. In most instances, it is our human inflexibility that holds back the Church which is the actual case right now.

If we remain inflexible, we are like old wine skins. The Holy Spirit will find those people who will respond, no matter how few that is.

I pray that we all open up our hearts to be able to receive the gift God has for us.

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By: John Panos https://www.aoiusa.org/maybe-i%e2%80%99m-just-too-american-for-this-orthodox-church/#comment-12334 Wed, 16 Jun 2010 14:28:44 +0000 https://www.aoiusa.org/?p=7009#comment-12334

All of us started to imitate the Europeans and we have cast the words of Christ from our hearts.

All of us? Really?

I’m not sure where you live, but it is not so where I live.

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By: Eliot Ryan https://www.aoiusa.org/maybe-i%e2%80%99m-just-too-american-for-this-orthodox-church/#comment-12333 Wed, 16 Jun 2010 12:59:53 +0000 https://www.aoiusa.org/?p=7009#comment-12333 Here is the essence of Orthodoxy: to boast of the Lord, the Maker of the world. This does not mean to keep talking about it to deaf ears, but to deeply feel it in your heart.

St Nicholas the Serb (Bishop Nicholas (Velimirovich) of Zhicha):

Thus, there are three levels of boasting: the lowest is to brag about things, that is something. Higher than this is to boast of people, that is someone; the highest is to boast of the Lord, the Maker of the world.

Self-confidence is something built into the American culture. You can be anything you want … believe in yourself… To be Orthodox means to use all your strength and intellectual abilities to become humble before God. Otherwise sooner or later we’ll turn away from our path and take a way that is alien to Orthodoxy.

When Europe discovered the microscope and the telescope, medicines and surgical instruments, and all types of machines, cars, airplanes, radio and television, she proclaimed herself the wonderworker of this age and turned away from Christ. All of us started to imitate the Europeans and we have cast the words of Christ from our hearts.

Christ does not need a Cyberknife cutting-edge image guidance system to cure the sick. He brought people back to life with the power of His word. He did not need a spacecraft to ascend to the Father.

St Nicholas the Serb (Bishop Nicholas (Velimirovich) of Zhicha):

If only Europe were to boast of Christianity as its most precious inheritance and greatest legacy! That is how it should have been and that is how it was in early Christian times, when Europe was Christian and identified itself with Christianity. The glorification and preaching of Christ on all the Continents and to all peoples – that was the mission given by God to the whole European Continent. Apart from Christianity, Europe has nothing to boast of: without Christ, Europe is the very last beggar and the most shameless plunderer in this world.

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By: George Michalopulos https://www.aoiusa.org/maybe-i%e2%80%99m-just-too-american-for-this-orthodox-church/#comment-12331 Wed, 16 Jun 2010 12:40:13 +0000 https://www.aoiusa.org/?p=7009#comment-12331 In reply to cynthia curran.

Cynthia, you’re absolutely right. I am dealing in stereotypes usually on the blog as it makes things easier. As far as California, you are 100% correct. If California ejected the LA area and the Bay area, it would be a deep red state. There are maps from the 2000, 2004, and 2008 elections that show that the vast majority of the counties and land mass of the US went for the GOP. In fact, you could literally have driven from Washington State to Florida and from Maine to California without even passing through one county that went Blue.

The broader point however is that in these deep blue islands (Detroit, Chicago, LA, SF, Madison, Baltimore/DC,etc), the demographic has changed to one of deep government dependancy, whether the people within them are working for the Federal gov’t, receiving welfare, or are a growing illegal alien population (i.e. the illegal voters). The goal of the Left has been to grow the dependency class, hence support for blanket amnesty for illegal aliens, thereby tipping the electorate to 51%+ government-dependent.

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By: cynthia curran https://www.aoiusa.org/maybe-i%e2%80%99m-just-too-american-for-this-orthodox-church/#comment-12328 Wed, 16 Jun 2010 02:50:22 +0000 https://www.aoiusa.org/?p=7009#comment-12328 George sterotypes states, in fact, in blue California, there are a lot of counties that are purple or red, San Diego, Orange, Bakersfield, Frenso, and forth, I used to live there. And Florida has went to the Dems before, and Orlando in Orange County Florida votes Democratic more than Bakersfield Ca in Kern County. Its Los Angeles which gives the Democratic party the edge in Presidential electins.

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By: +Stephen-Anthony https://www.aoiusa.org/maybe-i%e2%80%99m-just-too-american-for-this-orthodox-church/#comment-12327 Wed, 16 Jun 2010 02:30:43 +0000 https://www.aoiusa.org/?p=7009#comment-12327 In reply to Trudy.

Oh Pleaze – I find your response typical of parishioners who would rather sit on their hands in pews while the world goes by outside the stained glass window. Fr. Dn. Eric is correct in the very fine essay he has written. What has Orthodoxy been doing in this country since 1794? Wrangling over who has jurisdiction in this land. It is something all Orthodox hierarchs will have to account for before the dread judgement seat of Christ. Bishops of foreign sees do not understand America and can not in all reality give good direction to this nation. They can appreciate the gifts that America freely sends them for the ministry of the Church. I do not see them as caring pastors over us. My family has been in this land since the early 1600’s predating St. Herman over 100 years. That does not give me any authority over anyone else in the US. This is hard for foreign bishops to understand. Being an American is not being someone who does not know or can not know the Orthodox way. The false dichotomy that somehow is perpetuated by foreign club Christians is not Christian. There is not, never was and never can be “cradle Orthodox” Christians. You must be converted. Read the rite of Holy Baptism again. Your God-parents renounced Satan on your behalf and spit on him at the Western door of the church building. You were converted, not born Orthodox. Stop talking about Orthodox from the cradle and Orthodox who are converts. It is false. It is splitting and dampens the zeal of the Church. So I point out to you then, join in the zeal of those who newly find the true way and do not separate them from the rest of you using as an excuse that you were born into Orthodoxy. So newly converted people are not quite like the old converts. Embrace the new ones and their zeal and do not reject them as being inferior. This attitude must stop if any unity in Christ is to come about. Bishop Stephen-Anthony of the American Orthodox Church.

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