Here’s another caricature that’s pretty crude. Not sure its deserved, but its certainly a pulse point. He’s got a whole stream of bits on youtube:
]]>I don’t know if you’re aware of it, but there’s this Coptic priest named Fr Boutros who preaches on one of the 24/7 all-Arabic language channels. He lovingly takes on the basic Islamic tenets and and actually gets Muslims to convert to Christianity. Sure, he’s got a price on his head and he’s probably not long for this world, but if it comes to that, I’m sure he’s got a martyr’s crown waiting for him.
We are never going to win the political argument, the demographics in Europe are against us. We can however pray that the Holy Spirit will revive His Church and the evangelistic fervor of the Holy Apostles. Talking about null canons that had to do with dioceses that no longer exist or who’s primatial makes us look like pharisees. The vestments may be fabulous, the churches gleaming, but we’ll still be whited sepulchres.
May God forgive me, a sinner.
]]>You make great points. I for one thought the 25 March ceremony at the White House was a debacle and the meeting between the Patriarch and Obama for ten minutes at a hotel was a complete farce.
Even though I respect Archbishop Demetrios as a priest and theologian, I do not think he is an effective Archbishop.
I am inclined to agree that he should have raised issues such issues as abortion, same sex marriage, euthanasia, and other moral issues that are devastating American society. These are all at the forefront of issues that face the faithful of America and that the Church must confront.
As for Halki and the Islamicization of Greece, I am coming to the same conclusion. I think the Patriarch got ambushed at that meeting with Barack which the Turks were able to control and influence all the way. The linkage with Thrace is a dangerous link and this suggests that even if Halki were to open, the Patriarchate would be very weak and vulnerable.
The time may have arrived for the Ecumenical Patriarchate to move to Greece and rehabilitate itself. It would be nice to remain in Constantinople but if worse comes to worse, it moves.
Theodoros
]]>From post 19
“The thrust of the argument against the GOA/EP is not that it shouldn’t plead the case of the Greeks of Greece, Cyprus, etc. It should. The major criticism is the perception (more correct than not) that the EP/GOA cares nothing at all about America, its natives peoples, evanglizing them, evangelism itself, etc.”
That does not seem to me to be questioning the motives of Obama. You outrightly question the motives of the GOA and the EP.
From Post 21
“But I digress. Once you start pushing 50, or you’ve been in the private sector and thus have to actually be productive and accountable, you learn to cut through the BS and get to the heart of the matter.”
I fit into both of these categories (pushing 50 and private sector) and I agree with the assesment that one learns to cut through the BS. That is what i am doing when I make the points I do regarding things posted on this site and other sites and comments made by hierarchs (of many jurisdictions). Perhaps what I view as BS is different from what you believe it to be.
“My points regarding the lack of evangelistic effort on behalf of the EP/GOA stand. Just look at the grief Demetrius got from the East Coast secular Greek press when he talked about evangelizing America. You’d have thought he did something criminal.”
And that makes my point as well. The Abp. has spoken often of the need to evangelize and continues to do so. Who cares that some in the Greek papers complain. Certainly it has not stopped the Abp.
“As for my former membership in the GOA, nothing untoward happened. I still help out at the local Greek festival, I even helped my dad prepare for the annual Agape Vespers picnic yesterday (which was my day off). I still get along w/ the priest of my former parish.”
Excellent, do you see how wrong one can be when one makes assumptions about the motives of another?
“It’s just that I saw which way the wind was blowing evangelistically, traditionally, pietistically, etc. (Last nite, our youth group maintained an all-night vigil over the funeral bier of our Lord. They went through the entire Psalter three times and even chanted the Lamentations.)”
Again, a beautiful thing. Our parish has been doing an all night vigil for many years and numersous other GOA parishes in the Chicago area do the same. Perhaps it is not the entire GOA which lacks in piety, but rather maybe just your former GOA parish.
“But I see that you agree w/ me: “Faith comes first over everything else!” Faith. That doesn’t mean worrying about the names of countries or closed-down seminaries, that means baptizing new countries and opening up new seminaries. Dioceses unfortunately close up shop some times (Hippo, Carthage, Laodicea, Ephesus, etc.) Should we not open up new dioceses?”
Faith absolutely means doing BOTH! Evangelism AND defense of religious freedom and human rights.
In fact, if I don’t do both, I am not being true to Christ. Several years ago, in a presentation of loving your fellow man I heard Fr. Roman Braga state that if we don’t defend our fellow man, we really do not show love for them.
In any case, The Church will never fail, in spite of us 9clergy and laity alike).
Wishing you a blessed Pascha,
Good Resurrection,
Tom K
]]>my assessments were about the Obama’s administrations motives, not Theorodore’s. They may be flawed but that’s the only conclusion I can draw from the Greek press’s accounts of the entire trip to Turkey (to say nothing of Bartholomew’s visage in the one lone photograph; it was grim to say the least).
But I see that you agree w/ me: “Faith comes first over everything else!” Faith. That doesn’t mean worrying about the names of countries or closed-down seminaries, that means baptizing new countries and opening up new seminaries. Dioceses unfortunately close up shop some times (Hippo, Carthage, Laodicea, Ephesus, etc.) Should we not open up new dioceses?
As for my former membership in the GOA, nothing untoward happened. I still help out at the local Greek festival, I even helped my dad prepare for the annual Agape Vespers picnic yesterday (which was my day off). I still get along w/ the priest of my former parish. (I just got back from a pilgrimage at one of the “Athonite” monasteries that so scares the EP with four other parishioners at my OCA parish. BTW, they like Jonah and have excellent relations with the OCA.) It’s just that I saw which way the wind was blowing evangelistically, traditionally, pietistically, etc. (Last nite, our youth group maintained an all-night vigil over the funeral bier of our Lord. They went through the entire Psalter three times and even chanted the Lamentations.)
Why OCA? Me and a few other founders did the necessary legwork to try and find the most evangelistic, indigenous jurisdiction in the US. Antioch was a close second, the only drawback was that it wasn’t indigenous. Ergo, OCA.
Did we find out about the shenanigans in Syosset? Not at first. But you know what? Because the OCA is autocephalous, all of its bishops are autonomous. That means we were protected from the criminality of the two previous metropolitans. In fact, the autonomy of the diocesan bishops helped precipitate the fall of Herman. In our diocese, the dreaded “head tax” was quietly phased out and the Diocese made up the difference. This meant that Syosset’s take was in the hands of the Diocese and when they threatened to withhold it, voila! Exeunt Herman, stage left.
But I digress. Once you start pushing 50, or you’ve been in the private sector and thus have to actually be productive and accountable, you learn to cut through the BS and get to the heart of the matter. My points regarding the lack of evangelistic effort on behalf of the EP/GOA stand. Just look at the grief Demetrius got from the East Coast secular Greek press when he talked about evangelizing America. You’d have thought he did something criminal.
Anyway, I know because you’re on this website you love the Faith (forgive me for imparting motives here but there it is). May you have a blessed Pascha!
]]>So as long as we are making assupmtions aboout motives, it seems to me that you must be a fomer member of the GOA who is or was hurt or angered by some action withinn the GOA or the EP. Now, because of that history, you cannot help but critisize and assign the most sinister of motives to any actions of the GOA or EP.
Nobody hates smoking like an ex-smoker.
Theodoros is right on target and said it far better than I ever could. Faith comes first over everything else! Everything else! But that does not mean that there is no room left in me (or others) for issues relating to MY motherland (the US) or the motherland of my ancestors (Greece). Or human rights issues regarding the EP, Cyprus, Kosovo, Palestine, Darfur, China, North Korea etc. To parpahprase the Gospel from Mopnday’s bridegroom service, we must do the one with out leaving the others undone.
Wishing you nothing but Blessings and a Good Resurrection!
]]>This characterization becomes harder to dislodge when the Greek foreign ministry, SAE, etc. puts out paschal messages describing the Resurrection in purely ethnic tones.
Along this point, consider what Arb Demetrius of the GOA did when he went to the White House or what the EP did when he went to Obama’s hotel room: there was no mention of the Gospel, moral rectitude, the culture of death which is destroying Western civilization, the egregious sin of the great debt that is being foisted upon future generations, thereby enslaving them in lives of perpetual poverty, etc.
Instead, these bishops talked about the name of a sovereign nation which they don’t like (neither do I for that matter) and a long-closed theological school. On the first issue, we Greeks lost decisevely. so overwhelmingly in fact that we can never bring it up again as doing so would risk losing what little political capital we have left. As for the second issue, not only did we ensure that it would never be opened again, but doing so could only come at the cost of the further Islamification of Greece.
This is the equivalent of a three-point whoosh shot for the Turks on this (Halki) issue alone. Here they are: 1) they have managed to divide the EP from the Greek government forever as the Greeks don’t want to give up their prerogatives over their Muslim minority, 2) we wasted precious capital on a snipe-hunt (it’s not like we don’t have ANY theological schools in the rest of the world), and 3) the Obama Administration and its Sec of State (Hillary) have shown themselves to be completely apathetic about Greece’s, the Greek-Americans’, and the EP’s interests. And decisively so. (You can almost see them rolling their eyes or looking at their watches whenever someone tries to press EP/Greek interests. We look foolish and –worse–get nothing for it.)
Obama views himself as a secular, cultural transnationalist at best (and a Muslim sympathizer)so he could care less about Orthodoxy. Don’t believe me? He’s becoming more and more open about his “indifference” to Christianity. Did you see where he made Georgetown cover their crosses and take down pictures of Jesus? Even the Turks allowed icons to be shown at Halki when it was open for God’s sake! The State Dept views the EP as a irritant and the Greek lobby as a wasting asset.
Yeah, I’d like for Halki to be opened on principle but the EP would be doing itself a favor if it took evangelism much more seriously than it does. It needs to get off the “Green agenda” which is warmed-over Gaia worship anyway and preach the Gospel. Sit down for this one: it should preach the Gospel to the Turks, after all, Canon 28 gave it authority over three provinces, two of which are now Islamic: Thrace and Asia (i.e. Turkey). The fact that evangelism never crosses its mind is not lost of the vast majority of Americans and increasing on Orthodox Americans. No one’s going to sign up for Fr Hope-bearer’s vision of “submission.”
]]>I would not be writing this were it not for the fact that I consider all Orthodox Christians to be brothers and sisters in the faith united by what really counts — the Gospel, the sacraments, the fathers, the Canons, and holy tradition.
Having looked at some of the past postings on the site, I am somewhat bothered by what I perceive to be vicious attacks on Greece and Greeks.
I can understand why many non-Greeks were offended by the speech given by the Archimandrite at Holy Cross.At the same time, many of the attacks on the hierarchy of the GOA for their support on Greek issues seem to be rather vicious, and out of context.
I do not customarily defend the GOA but speaking for myself I have a love for both America and Greece, as do most Greek Americans. I believe this is the case also with the hierarchy of the GOA.
There is nothing wrong with the GOA supporing issues that do in fact threaten the Orthodox Church.
Two autocephalous Orthodox Churches (EP and Cyprus) are directly threatened by the Turkish government which has slaughtered a few million Christians of Greek, Armenian, and Assyrian ancestry over the past century.
There is a direct religious aspect in the Greek Archdiocese helping to publicize the treatment of ordinary people (Christians at that) who are being severely oppressed in both Turkey and Turkish occupied Cyprus.
Of course, I am the first to state that such activities should come secondary to the Gospel and to the unity of Orthodoxy in America, but they are still quite important.
Very recently, I attended a presentation about the Greek Orthodox still living in Constantinople. There was a picture of an old Greek woman living in a house on the island of Halki. The picture of her showed her proudly standing before her collection of Icons in her home. Many of these people are living under terrible conditions and so it is entirely just for the Bishops of America to call on American officials to support religious freedom and human rights in Islamic countries.
This is also not only a Greek issue. I have a documentary film entitled “Days Made of Fear” about the Serbs of Kosovo, another group of Orthodox Christians completely forgotten by the world living in terrible circumstances today.
Would anyone criticize the Serbian Church for supporting the rights of Serbian Christians? Or how about the Antiochians supporting Orthodox Arabs in the Holy Land and Lebanon?
If Orthodox administrative unity in America is going to happen, there has to be mutual respect and inclusiveness for all. I consider myself a Greek, an American, and above all an Orthodox Christian, and believe in implementing the Canons of the Church and Evangelizing North America.
But I am profoundly turned off as one Greek Orthodox by some of the posts on this site. Some I consider legitimate criticism but others are profoundly hostile and unfriendly.
A Wonderful Pascha to all
Theodoros
]]>As a supporter of “Symphonia” the concept that defined Church-State relations in Byzantium, the Church of Greece has been unjustifiably criticized, as was the person of the late pious Archbishop Christodoulos.
The terror attacks on the Churches in Greece is carried out by criminal anarchists who are the products of globalization and the atheistic policies of the European Union.
There is something to be said for Church-State relations in Greece.
1) The Church helped preserve the Greek language and identity during Ottoman times. Steven Runciman wrote in “The Great Church in Captivity” that Orthodoxy preserved Hellenism and Hellenism preserved Orthodoxy. The identification with national identity and the Church is not Unique to the Greeks. Serbia, Russia, Rumania, the Arab Orthodox likewise intertwine national identity with the Church.
2)As to the accusation in the article that the Church has adopted a defense of “racial” identity. This is absurd. The late Archbishop Damaskinos along with other clerics such as Metropolitan Chrysostomos of Zakynthos and Metropolitan Joachim of Volos have been honored and revered as righteous among the Nations by the Holocaust Memorial in Jerusalem for their humanitarian efforts to protect Greek Jews from the Nazis during the Second World War.
Racism and racial ideas are foreign to the whole of the Orthodox Church, and the Church of Greece in particular abhors racism and prejudice. The late Archbishop Christodoulos who was reviled by left wing Greeks and secularists, as well as by the foreign media always condemned with out hesitation displays of racism and anti-semitism, and called on the Greek people to accept and embrace immigrants that arrive in Greece.
The article posted here is severely misleading. With regard to the Church scandals that overtook the Church of Greece. Those Bishops implicated in the scandals were investigated and removed from their positions when the scandals emerged in 2005.
As to the notion that the Church is losing the respect of Greeks, this is false. Churches in Greece on Sundays and holy days are usually full. This has been my experience every year when I visit Greece.
The defense of the Nation and its history should not mislead anyone. The Church of Greece is devoted to the Gospel above all else, but is also patriotic as the Orthodox Churches in America are to the United States.
The Church in the Byzantine Empire blessed the Emperor and the institutions of State. The same with the Russian Church under the Tsars (and during the Second World War, when the Church despite the Stalinist horrors urged the persecuted faithful to fight for the Russian motherland against the Nazi invaders).
Greece is not yet the secular mess that most European societies are, and the Church is ensuring that things stay that way. In any case, this is a profoundly anti-Greek article that I found most offensive.
I am a Greek American born and raised in the United States, and I fully identify with Hellenic Orthodoxy while simultaneously sympathizing with the establishment of an autocephalous Church in America for all Orthodox Christians.
But if such an endeavor takes on the tone as the above article, I can probably do without. I see serious problems with both the Ecumenical Patriarchate and the GOA in terms of their deviating from proper Orthodox Canonical principles, and for offending converts into the Church.
Just as I believe the Church should advance the Gospel in North America and all must be included, so I also believe that Greeks like myself who are nationalists and who identify with the Greek cause should not be subject to the type of ridicule in the above article either.
This is an excellent and informed website, but I am profoundly dissapointed by the sarcastic tone of the above article which denigrates the Church of Greece and Greeks in general. Legitimate criticism of the Phanar and GOA is well taken, but this goes beyond that.
Greece and Cyprus are very devout countries (despite the loud and violent displays by Greek leftists) where the traditional religious segments of society are the quiet majority. There is nothing unhealthy or wrong in the Church supporting a love of the nation and its history.
The Greek populations of Asia Minor were slaughtered by the Turks out of devotion to their faith and in defense of their holy Churches. Their Bishops such as Chrysostom of Smyrna, a man of tremendous piety was slaughtered for refusing to abandon his flock and in accordance with the Gospel chose to share their fate.
In September 1955, the Greek population of Constantinople was attacked by a Turkish government instigated pogrom. What has upset most Greeks about the complicity of the western governments in failing to oppose these crimes are the horrific manner in which Greek Orthodox Churches were desecrated during this period of terror.
With the Turkish invasion of Cyprus, the Turks have destroyed over 500 Greek Churches and Monasteries. The Icons, the chalices, etc.. have been desecrated and profaned. Churches are used as stables so Turkish settlers can bring their farm animals to live in them.
I respectfully object to the mockery of the Church of Greece and to the ridicule of the Hellenic-Orthodox unity. The above examples to the Turkish assaults on Greek Churches in Constantinople and Cyprus is to demonstrate the degree to which Greeks still believe in sacred principles. The violation of Greek Orthodox Churches by the Turks enflames the anger of many Greeks, because in most parts of Europe Churches are now empty, but the Greeks stil adhere to the faith of Christ (as do the other Orthodox Countries).
The Church of Greece is putting up a fight against European atheism. The European constitution makes no mention of Christianity as if it never existed, and there is now a push by the Europeans to force member countries to legalize same sex marriages, remove Icons and prayer from public schools, etc.. Does anyone think the Church of Greece should accept or endorse this agenda?
Most unfortunately, the poor and miserable Greeks living in Constantinople have been forgotten and unfortunately confused with the policies of the Ecumenical Patriarch. These people are now very few, most of them having been the victims of an ethnic cleansing campaign or having fled their ancestral lands in a state of terror.
These are pious people trying to preserve as many Churches as they can as persecution still continues. The Greeks love their Churches that they have lost to the Turks and mourn them.
I am the first to condemn any attitude within the Orthodox Church that is chauvanistic or racist (particularly by Greeks) but I also believe there should be some respect for the Greeks and for the Greek character of Byzantium.
The Russian chroncicles mention Prince Vladimir’s delegation that travelled to Constantinople and referred to the Byzantines as Greeks. This does not make the Greeks supremacists but there should be at least some respect.
Incidentally, the Church-State Union existing in Greece is now being replicated in Russia (which I think is great).
Happy Easter
Theodoros
]]>It makes evident too, the intellectual poverty of the “Orthodoxy and Hellenism” construct. One has to ask, which Hellenism? The Hellenism anathematized by the Fathers? The Hellenism applied to race? The Hellenism of the Cappadocians? — in which case the construct is not even logical.
The more one looks into this, the more one realizes the entire construct is untenable.
]]>It says this…in the anathemas sections:
To them who attempt by whatever means to introduce a new controversy or teaching into the ineffable Oeconomy of our Incarnate Saviour and God,and who seek to penetrate the way wherein God the Word was united to the human substance and for what reason He deified the flesh He assumed, and who, by using dialectical terminology of nature and adoption, try to dispute about the transcendent innovation of His divine and human natures, Anathema (3).
To them who profess piety yet shamelessly, or rather impiously, introduce into the Orthodox and Catholic Church the ungodly doctrines of the Greeks concerning the souls of men, heaven and earth, and the rest of creation, Anathema (3).
To them who prefer the foolish so-called wisdom of the secular philosophers and follow its proponents, and who accept the metempsychosis of human souls or that, like the brute animals, the soul is utterly destroyed and departs into nothingness, and who thus deny the resurrection, judgment, and the final recompense for the deeds committed during life, Anathema (3).
To them who dogmatize that matter and the Ideas are without beginning or are co-eternal with God, the Creator of all, and that heaven and earth and the other created things are everlasting, unoriginate and immutable, thus legislating contrary to Him Who said: ‘Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words will not pass away’; to them who thus speak vain and earthly things drawing down the Divine curse upon their own heads, Anathema (3).
To them who maintain that although the wise men of the Greeks and the foremost of the heresiarchs were put under anathema by the Seven Holy and Catholic Councils and by all the fathers that shone forth in Orthodoxy as ones alien to the Catholic Church because of the adulterations and loathsome superabundance of error in their teachings, yet they are exceedingly more excellent,both here and in the future judgment, than those pious and orthodox men who, by human passion or by ignorance, have committed some offense, Anathema (3).
To them who do not accept with a pure and simple faith and with all their soul and heart the extraordinary miracles of our Saviour and God and of the holy Theotokos who without stain gave birth to Him, and of the other saints,but who attempt by sophistic demonstration and words to traduce them as being impossible, or to misinterpret. them according to their own way of thinking, and to present them according to their own opinion, Anathema (3).
To them who undertake Greek studies not only for purposes of education but also follow after their vain opinions, and are so thoroughly convinced of their truth and validity that they shamelessly introduce them and teach them to others, sometimes secretly and sometimes openly, Anathema (3).
To them who of themselves refashion creation by means of mythical fabrications and accept the Platonic ideas as veritable, saying that matter, being self-subsistent, is given form by these ideas, and who thereby clearly calumniate the free will of the Creator Who brought all things into being out of non-being and Who, as Maker, established the beginning and end of all things by His authority and sovereignty, Anathema (3).
To them who say that in the last and general resurrection men will be raised up and judged in other bodies and not in those wherewith they passed this present life, inasmuch as these were corrupted and destroyed, and who babble empty and vain things against Christ our God Himself, and His disciples, our teachers, who taught that in the very same body in which men lived, in the same shall they also be judged; furthermore the great Apostle Paul in his discourse concerning the resurrection distinctly and with examples restates the same truth more extensively and refutes as mindless those who think differently; therefore,to them who contravene such dogmas and doctrines, Anathema (3).
To them who accept and transmit the vain Greek teachings that there is apre-existence of souls and teach that all things were not produced and did.not come into existence out of non-being, that there is an end to the torment or a restoration again of creation and of human affairs, meaning by such teachings that the Kingdom of the Heavens is entirely perishable and fleeting, whereas the Kingdom is eternal and indissoluble as Christ our God Himself taught and delivered to us, and as we have ascertained from the entire Old and New Scripture,that the torment is unending and the Kingdom everlasting to them who by such teachings both destroy themselves and. become agents of eternal condemnation to others, Anathema (3).
To those pagan and heterodox doctrines and teachings introduced in contempt of the Christian and Orthodox faith or in opposition to the Catholic and blameless faith of the Orthodox, by John Italus and by his disciples who shared in his ruin, Anathema (1).
Sounds like the Church Fathers were not fans of Hellenism to me.
Kali Anastasi,
Dean
As one of those who has written about the need to be Christ-centered (to which you may or may not be referring), I do not see the disdain for the EP in the comments noted above or on other posts on this site. In fact, I believe – and expect – that everyone who has posted would honor the EP (at least for the office, but I think also the man) and indeed support him all the more for the suffering and persecution that Constantinople endures. I would also believe that all of us hold Mount Athos in the very highest regard – so it’s not an antagonism to things greek. In fact, as a longtime member of the GOA, I have been extremely grateful to know many genuinely saintly priests and bishops – some quite well. I can’t imagine where I would be without them. My debt to them is immeasurable.
As such, I don’t think there is any hostility (intended or otherwise) meant for the GOA per se. What I DO see in the various comments are concerns about focus and behavior. In my case, my concern is that true leaders are those who lead by serving their people, true shepherds are those who give their lives for their sheep – much like the men I just mentioned. This, however, does not seem nearly so evident in some of things we have seen coming out of higher leadership. Unfortunately, many recent events (all documented well elsewhere on this blog) seem to arouse concern. That is what I think you are seeing here.
One of my concerns is the apparent misuse of the Church for political purposes. Now, I have no problem with our leaders addressing political issues. In fact, I expect them to address such issues when the dictates of faith or the concerns of the faithful warrant it. However, when political posturing is offered to serve what appears to be the interests of overseas agendas or the power and privileges of particular groups, then I get a little concerned. Then I question their priorities and their focus. My key concern in this case is that the Church – both here and over there (wherever “there” may be) will suffer great loss when it is willing to swap its treasure for a mess of pottage, when it chooses to serve some purpose other than the Kingdom of God and the building up of the Body of Christ.
I am not insisting on some kind of pietism here. I expect the faith to “baptize” and hopefully “transfigure” a culture – indeed, I hope to see that happen here in American. (Our forefathers have given us a wonderful start.) At the same time, I must resolutely resist anyone who insisted on promoting that culture as if it were on a par with the Gospel (which certainly seems to be implied in the message of the Deputy Foreign Minister) or as if it were part of the divine mandate. This does not make me hostile to Hellenism by any means. I deeply appreciate the many gifts that Hellenism has to offer as I would any of the many rich cultures who also have much to offer. But I can not accept its elevation in importance to something nearly equal to the Gospel. That, to me, borders on idolatry. Unfortunately, history is replete with efforts to meld the faith with other agendas. Inevitably it leads to corruption (double-heartedness always does) – as John has detailed above. This in turn slanders God and undermines the mission of the Church. If this seems harsh, I believe that Christ was a little more pointed when He warned that it would be better for those who caused such a downfall to have a millstone hung around their necks and thrown into the sea.
Please do not think that I am assuming that the Minister’s comments express the EP’s position. Moreover, I see no reason why we can not honor the EP (which is his due) and stand in solidarity with him and all those who suffer for the faith while at the same time hoping to see the American Church united in obedience to Christ (as it must be) under a pastor whose first concern is serving Christ in America (as it should be).
I hope I have expressed these concerns without any trace of the acrimony or un-Christ-like talk that have offended you. I believe that we can and must honor and support our elders overseas while we also establish the appropriate and needed form of leadership here. Indeed, if we are as young and immature as some claim – and we may well be – then we can not afford ” part-time parents,” as it were. Despite the common current practice, children do not raise themselves well. In that sense, I would hope to have the paternal support of as many Patriarchs as possible. But this will prove difficult IF any are ultimately more concerned about their claims or prerogatives than about the mission of Christ. (Again, I do NOT suppose this to be the case. Even in the face of appearances to the contrary, love – and decency – require that we assume good faith and honorable intent until proven otherwise.) This process may entail difficult choices which will unavoidably offend some and irritate others – it must be done with as much love and honesty as we are capable of in Christ. Many egos will be crucified in the process. Hopefully all of them.
Kalo Pascha.
What are they? In a nutshell, the equating of Orthodoxy and Hellenism with both subsumed under ethnic identity in service to the Greek state.
It doesn’t apply to you? Of course it does. As “Hellenism and Orthodoxy” becomes the official policy of the GOA, the purpose, and perhaps even the nature of the Church must change in order to accommodate it.
See here how dominant the idea has become.
]]>“This is what Archimandrite Elpidophoros wants the American Orthodox to sign up for. Thanks, but no thanks.”
Don’t you think that is a bit of a stretch? The deputy foreign minister resposible for Greeks Abroad sent a paschal greeting. What is the big deal? I think this is really getting silly.
NOONE is asking us to “sign up” for this. If one is not a “Greek Abroad” or (like me) dosen’t consider ones self a “Greek Abroad” then it dosen’t refer to us. Big deal!
]]>Furthermore, this “acorn” espressed to GOA (as did others) that they had hoped that the Abp would have addressed issues relating to life (abortion, capital punishment and stem cell research) with the president in addition to important issues of human rights and religious freedom such as the situation of the EP and the continued division of Cyprus.
It is about time that people realise that not everyone who supports the EP and its role in world Orthodoxy marches in lockstep and that supporting the EP or human rights issues relating to ancestral homelands is not tantamount to putting Hellenism over Orthodoxy.
It is the kind of assumptive attitude seen on this site (regarding this general topic) and in Met. Jonah’s speech that will hinder the cause for unity that we all desire. Why would I want to surround myself with people who have speak with such bitterness and disdain towards the EP yet profess to respect and want to help it. It is not very convincing. I see a lot of talk about being Christ centered and that the GOA and the EP are not, but very little in the way of Christ like talk. There is so much anger that it realy saddens me. With these attitudes, (coupled with a lot of talk about unity by the OCA and AOCA and yet no action other than to blame the EP and the GOA) I don’t see unity coming for a very long time. Very sad.
As we listen to the twelve passion gospels tonight and try to really feel the suffering Christ endured for us, lets also try to remember the suffering that untold millions of faithfull hierarchs, clergy and laypersons suffered over the centuries in the “old world patriarchates”. Perhapsthen we can remember that in our relatively young experiment in Orhodoxy in the US (and all the new world), we may not know everything.
]]>