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Comments on: God and Man at Ground Zero https://www.aoiusa.org/god-and-man-at-ground-zero/ A Research and Educational Organization that engages the cultural issues of the day within the Orthodox Christian Tradition Sat, 21 Aug 2010 20:21:21 +0000 hourly 1 https://wordpress.org/?v=6.3.3 By: George Patsourakos https://www.aoiusa.org/god-and-man-at-ground-zero/#comment-13487 Sat, 21 Aug 2010 20:21:21 +0000 https://www.aoiusa.org/?p=7471#comment-13487 In reply to Fr. Johannes Jacobse.

The url is http://theologyandsociety.blogspot.com/

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By: Fr. Johannes Jacobse https://www.aoiusa.org/god-and-man-at-ground-zero/#comment-13485 Sat, 21 Aug 2010 19:27:18 +0000 https://www.aoiusa.org/?p=7471#comment-13485 In reply to George Patsourakos.

What’s the url George? The link with your name does not work.

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By: George Patsourakos https://www.aoiusa.org/god-and-man-at-ground-zero/#comment-13484 Sat, 21 Aug 2010 19:00:14 +0000 https://www.aoiusa.org/?p=7471#comment-13484 By the way, I forgot to mention in my comment above (Comment 2) that I have written several commentaries on my blog, Theology and Society, in which I criticize the self-destructive path America has been taking during the past few years.

In one commentary, which I believe AOIUSA readers will want to read, I tear apart the American judicial system and more specifically Judge Walker for sabotaging the mandate of California citizens who voted to ban gay marriages. Readers can access this commentary, which I wrote on August 8, by visiting my Theology and Society blog.

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By: Eliot Ryan https://www.aoiusa.org/god-and-man-at-ground-zero/#comment-13474 Sat, 21 Aug 2010 14:01:39 +0000 https://www.aoiusa.org/?p=7471#comment-13474 In reply to George Patsourakos.

… the political fight is just the surface, the real fight going on is “the fight between good and evil; between God and the devil”. This is what Eastern Europe and Russia understood during Communism. http://www.frederica.com/writings/the-wounded-torturer.html

We need the intercession of Archangel Saint Michael.

O glorious Archangel Saint Michael, Prince of the heavenly host, be our defense in the terrible warfare which we carry on against principalities and powers, against the rulers of this world of darkness, spirits of evil. Come to the aid of man, whom God created immortal, made in His own image and likeness, and redeemed at a great price from the tyranny of the devil. Fight this day the battle of our Lord, together with the holy angels, as already thou hast fought the leader of the proud angels, Lucifer, and his apostate host, who were powerless to resist thee, nor was there place for them any longer in heaven. That cruel, that ancient serpent, who is called the devil or Satan who seduces the whole world, was cast into the abyss with his angels. Behold this primeval enemy and slayer of men has taken courage. Transformed into an angel of light, he wanders about with all the multitude of wicked spirits, invading the earth in order to blot out the Name of God and of His Christ, to seize upon, slay, and cast into eternal perdition, souls destined for the crown of eternal glory.
[…]
Arise then, O invincible Prince, bring help against the attacks of the lost spirits to the people of God, and give them the victory. They venerate thee as their protector and patron; in thee holy Church glories as her defense against the malicious powers of hell; to thee has God entrusted the souls of men to be established in heavenly beatitude. Oh, pray to the God of peace that He may put Satan under our feet, so far conquered that he may no longer be able to hold men in captivity and harm the Church. Offer our prayers in the sight of the Most High, so that they may quickly conciliate the mercies of the Lord; and beating down the dragon, the ancient serpent, who is the devil and Satan, do thou again make him captive in the abyss, that he may no longer seduce the nations. Amen.

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By: George Patsourakos https://www.aoiusa.org/god-and-man-at-ground-zero/#comment-13466 Sat, 21 Aug 2010 02:00:19 +0000 https://www.aoiusa.org/?p=7471#comment-13466 It is unfortunate for most Americans that a trend has prevailed in America — at least from the time since Barack Obama was sworn in as President — and this trend has favored minority rights over the rights of the majority. I like to refer to this as “the undemocratic process.”

This minority favoritism can be seen not only with respect to many decisions made by the federal government, but also by decisions made recently by America’s federal courts. The ruling this month by a federal judge rejecting California’s mandate against same-sex marriage is a good example of this trend.

Another example is a federal judge’s ruling in Utah this week, which required that state to take down over a dozen crosses on a highway — crosses that served as memorials to state troopers killed in the line of duty. An atheist organization had complained that the crosses violated the freedom of atheists. What about the freedom of believers?

Unless Americans unite and continue to markedly promote true democracy and freedom — as Americans did recently in supporting the Manhattan Declaration — the United States is doomed, as it will continue to proceed on its current eroding path to self-destruction!

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By: Michael Bauman https://www.aoiusa.org/god-and-man-at-ground-zero/#comment-13405 Thu, 19 Aug 2010 18:59:55 +0000 https://www.aoiusa.org/?p=7471#comment-13405 In reply to Fr. John.

Fr. John, I agree with your statement. There is another difficulty we face however for even when someone makes a reasoned statement on the nature of Islam and the historic use of force to spread it, many folks, soaked in egalitarianism and anti-Chrisitan bigotry will say that the Bible is even more violent in its imagery and stories than the Koran. Often such statements are coupled with the false assertion that Timothy McVeigh was a ‘Christian’ terrorist. All religion is just an excuse for violence anyway, etc, etc.

In our ignorance and ‘tolerance’ we have lost the ability to properly define what a Christian is so it becomes even more difficult to state a Christian position on anything. You obviously include the Roman Catholics and Oriental Orthodox as Christian in your response but our Orthodox hierarchs cannot even gather the fortitude to state much of anything from a common Orthodox understanding even within the same jurisdiction. So what is your clear line that allows you to include those that you do and yet exclude protestants? How can we effectively make clear the nuances of faith which require such lines to be drawn and actually stand against the Islamic incursion?

The other factor is that we are easily cowed by the very real threat that any criticism of Islam will be met with violence.

BTW it would not be diffcult to construct a curriculum to teach the base understandings of various faiths on the five major items of import to understanding the faiths (even within Christianity):

1. What is the nature of God or the divine?
2. What is a human being?
3. What is the relationship (inter-relationship) between 1 & 2?
4. What is the nature and purpose of the physical (other than human beings) world?
5. What is the interaction amoungst 1, 2 & 4?

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By: Fr. John https://www.aoiusa.org/god-and-man-at-ground-zero/#comment-13398 Thu, 19 Aug 2010 17:36:46 +0000 https://www.aoiusa.org/?p=7471#comment-13398 Christ is in our midst!

I wrote the note below this morning not as a direct response to the article above but I find that it is related in theme. I wrote a response to an email I received this morning which included several photos of large crowds of Muslims praying in NYC intersections. The attached text is extremely hyperbolic and incendiary, an example of the fury being raised in some quarters. I don’t want anyone to accuse me of inciting unreason so please remember the source is not my own keyboard.
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Let us be clear that the current administration in DC is merely following in the footsteps of the previous one, which went way out of its way to draw a false distinction between a putative ‘normal Islam’ and a ‘perverted Islam’ of jihadists. We ought to know, having read our history that Islam is inherently aggressive and expansionist. The conservative political establishment has long demonstrated that it prefers any kind of religion to none at all. Thus the Bush admin was very close to, for example, the Reverend Sun Myung Moon, despite the problematic nature of his religion. Likewise, all the recent admins have supported the establishment of Islamic cultural edifices in our midst.
As Orthodox, we should be more picky in our support of causes, not for the sake of a disembodied, general religiosity but for the sake of Christ, the incarnate Truth.
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Dear N,

This is certainly effective agitprop conveying a compelling image of a Muslim takeover of Manhattan. I guess it’s comparable to our “Critical Mass” bicycle demonstrations on Fridays, about the same time actually. I’d like to see the cyclists try to get through these intersections. Perhaps that could be arranged. The bike demo is so named because it seeks to set conditions for a critical mass of cyclists to take control of the streets for safe pedaling. Likewise, Muslims are always seeking leverage to achieve a ‘tipping point’ in culture where they become the functional majority and can impose their system on the rest of us. Of course, this is called by the pleasant term “invitation’ (Ar. “Da’wa”)

I suppose the most relevant opinion regarding these mass demonstrations of Islamic faith would be that of the New Yorkers themselves. It is their city and these people worship amongst them. So far, I haven’t heard any gainsaying from the New York people regarding Islam in their midst. You and I know that the Cordoba Initiative is slated to be built on Park Ave. 2 blocks from the WTC site and not actually at “Ground Zero”, more like “ground 2” from what I gather. I am opposed to even that proximity to the Sacred Ground of the WTC site, but then I am in TN right now. For Manhattanites, who we should remember seem to be quiescent about the subject (or so we have been taught) those 2 busy downtown blocks may constitute a discrete distance separating the two sites enough that the notion of a “Ground Zero Mosque” may appear absurd to them. Or maybe not. I don’t watch TV or subscribe to the NY Times so I am not really in touch with the heartbeat of The City. Maybe Rupert knows.

The photos of masses Muslims worshipping and blocking traffic ( I guess they have permits as do the Critical Mass folks) appear to us in (relative) podunk as a grave threat because they are framed to incite us to fear and revulsion. I surmise that in the cyclopean megalopolitan setting of Manhattan they must appear rather small, otherwise locals would get worried. Maybe some are already, and we have to recognize that this demonstration of faith is designed to induce conversion to Islam. It’s their right of course in our open society.
Seems to me he only positive response is for us to teach, teach, teach. The sudden explosion of Islam into the American consciousness needs to be met not with fear and loathing but with real investment into understanding history and theology.

I fear that ignorant fearful people will take the note below as a call to ant-Muslim ‘jihad’ and create a situation of terror which will both enflame Muslim anger (always just below he surface and usually out in the open already in many places) while eliciting sympathy and openness to conversion, or ‘reversion’ as Muslims term it. Also, I hope they have really good security in their gatherings because jihadists could commit acts of terror against them for the same purpose. This would not be outside the playbook of Al-Qaeda, et. al. I think if that threat were considered carefully by the NYPD, they would have to ban these open-air prayer sessions.

Stephen Prothero authored a book a few years back that everyone is ignoring, making the case for a renewed program of public education about religion. Americans describe themselves as a religious people, more than any other advanced nation, yet we are more ignorant and unschooled in religion than any. Prothero says this is a dangerous situation that educators need to remedy, so that students can make informed choices regarding faith. If we persist in our fogginess about all things religious, an ill state self-imposed by our poor grasp of the concept of religious freedom, we are more likely to be made victims of liars and deceivers who will manipulate us through religious means.
As Orthodox, we possess a uniquely vivid cultural memory of what Islam does to society. All ORthodox should take this moment to speak from our convictions in a clear and loving way to invite people to criticize Islam as well as secular agnosticism. The visible Muslim presence in our midst is forcing a confrontation with one of our greatest fears and we Orthodox (and all traditional Christians, not Protestant heretics) have a duty to share our own convictions and experience of communion with a loving and personal God. If we remain silent – especially if our hierarchs remain silent – we will lose the coming battle for hearts and minds.

We need to take the forum away from the Muslims and the extremist Protestants and demagogues. As a priest I will do my part, to the extent of my skills and the grace given me by ordination. I will try no show who Christ is – the incarnate Truth– and not merely complain about what is not true.

In Christ, the Incarnate Word of God,
Fr John

I DO NOT PERSONALLY ENDORSE THE VIEWPOINT OR STYLE OF THE WRITING BELOW BUT SHARE IT AS AN EXAMPLE OF POPULAR PERCEPTION

D@aol.com

From: “M B”
Date: August 18, 2010 3:45:07 PM CDT
To:
Subject: FW: This is NYC on Madison Ave

No matter what you may have heard from our government, Islam is a violent religion. And your head is the one they want. Not in business, but on their chopping block.

WAKE UP PEOPLE! We’re sitting back like a bunch of idiots and letting this “government” ruin our country!

This is NYC on Madison Ave
[PICTURE OF PROSTRATE MUSLIMS FILLING MANHATTAN INTERSECTION]

I wonder what would happen if Christians blocked the streets of New York every Sunday for an hour or two?????

A Christian Nation cannot put up a Christmas scene of the baby Jesus in a public place, but the Muslims can stop normal traffic every Friday afternoon by worshiping in the streets… Something is happening in America that is reminiscent of what is happening in Europe.

This is Political correctness gone crazy….

This is an accurate picture of every Friday afternoon in several locations throughout NYC where there are mosques with a large number of Muslims that cannot fit into the mosque – They fill the surrounding streets, facing east for a couple of hours between about 2 & 4 p.m. – Besides this one at 42nd St & Madison Ave, there is another, even larger group, at 94th St & 3rd Ave, etc., etc. – Also, I presume, you are aware of the dispute over building another “highrise” Mosque a few blocks from “ground zero” – With regard to that one, the “Imam” refuses to disclose where the $110 million dollars to build it is coming from and there is a lawsuit filed to force disclosure of that information – Just some facts FYI – But then, you have your own troubles with the “immigration” problem and the new AZ law – November can’t come soon enough

[ANOTHER PICTURE OF PROSTRATE MUSLIMS FILLING MANHATTAN INTERSECTION]

This is in NewYork City on Madison Avenue, not in France or the Middle East or Yemen or Kenya.

Is there a message here???? Yes, there is, and they are claiming America for Allah.
If we don’t wake up soon, we are going to “politically correct” ourselves right out of our own country!

“For evil to flourish, all that is needed is for good people to do nothing.”
Edmund Burke

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