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Comments on: GOA Speaks Out on New York Same-Sex Marriage Bill https://www.aoiusa.org/goa-speaks-out-on-new-york-same-sex-marriage-bill/ A Research and Educational Organization that engages the cultural issues of the day within the Orthodox Christian Tradition Mon, 04 Jul 2011 14:36:50 +0000 hourly 1 https://wordpress.org/?v=6.3.3 By: Fr. Johannes Jacobse https://www.aoiusa.org/goa-speaks-out-on-new-york-same-sex-marriage-bill/#comment-20669 Mon, 04 Jul 2011 14:36:50 +0000 https://www.aoiusa.org/?p=10253#comment-20669 In reply to Andrew.

Yeah, but if it’s an add-on, web geeks could just cut and paste. Anything to make updating more efficient!

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By: Andrew https://www.aoiusa.org/goa-speaks-out-on-new-york-same-sex-marriage-bill/#comment-20667 Mon, 04 Jul 2011 14:21:06 +0000 https://www.aoiusa.org/?p=10253#comment-20667 In reply to Fr. Johannes Jacobse.

Father, I think there is more money in making this device I have a smartphone app. ……it could even do translations in real time.

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By: Fr. Johannes Jacobse https://www.aoiusa.org/goa-speaks-out-on-new-york-same-sex-marriage-bill/#comment-20666 Mon, 04 Jul 2011 14:03:47 +0000 https://www.aoiusa.org/?p=10253#comment-20666 In reply to Andrew.

Andrew, any way you could make your translator a FireFox add-on?

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By: George Patsourakos https://www.aoiusa.org/goa-speaks-out-on-new-york-same-sex-marriage-bill/#comment-20658 Mon, 04 Jul 2011 02:50:24 +0000 https://www.aoiusa.org/?p=10253#comment-20658 In reply to Rob.

Insofar as government is concerned, a person has much more freedom in making a decision than he does insofar as the Catholic or Orthodox Church is concerned. Moreover, judicial or man-made law tends to change or be amended periodically; ecclesiastical or divine law tends to be more permanent — even lasting for millennia.

Actually, a person is free to make any decision he wants with respect to government, provided he does not break the law. If a person does break the law, then — and only then — does the government have the right to take punitive action against that person.

Some laws — for example, smoking marijuana — may be irrelevant or outdated. Nonetheless, a person must continue to abide by these laws, unless Congress or a state legislature changes or abolishes them. I believe that California and a couple of other states have passed laws allowing their residents to smoke marijuana.

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By: Rob https://www.aoiusa.org/goa-speaks-out-on-new-york-same-sex-marriage-bill/#comment-20657 Sun, 03 Jul 2011 23:57:48 +0000 https://www.aoiusa.org/?p=10253#comment-20657 In reply to George Patsourakos.

Perhaps a better question, George, is what types of decisions should a person in our society be free to make without fear of the government taking punitive action against them? It seems you’re saying that one cannot allow for certain liberties as a politician and remain a good Catholic (or a good Orthodox). Just as I do not expect the government to impose the virtue of generosity and charity by imposing draconian levels of taxation, I do not expect the government should be able to impose the perfect model of chastity upon a married couple by threatening them with fines or worse for choosing to utilize contraception. Divorce is another issue: I know very well that many couples divorce for reasons other than infidelity (the only true “out” permitted in Scripture). Nonetheless, to suggest the government should be able to force a woman (or man) to remain in any particular civil marriage against their will just runs contrary to everything I believe as an American (even though I firmly believe in honoring one’s commitments when one makes them.)

Although I tend to be Libertarian in most things, the area where I’m torn is on drugs. Although I’ve never taken an illegal substance, I have a problem with imprisoning along with violent criminals people who have done nothing more than smoke a few marijuana cigarettes (a substance admittedly less addictive and dangerous than alcohol). At the same time, some drugs have such terrible power and take such a toll on human life (heroin and crystal meth being just two) that I’m not sure I can take the route of Ron Paul who favors removing all restrictions on drug use.

In general, though, I think the notion that government is the means by which virtue is enforced is a faulty one.

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By: Andrew https://www.aoiusa.org/goa-speaks-out-on-new-york-same-sex-marriage-bill/#comment-20656 Sun, 03 Jul 2011 23:36:39 +0000 https://www.aoiusa.org/?p=10253#comment-20656 Allow me to put this letter through this device I have at home. Its called the 79th Street street translator. When I ran this statement from the GOA through it here is what came out:

“79th Street says there may be a pan-orthodox consensus on same sex marriage. But “consensus” is such a complicated term (wink, wink) the GOA and its leadership do not have an official political position on such legislative issues. The only legislative issues we discuss are related to the special race “omogenia”. We have no desire to offend the politicians who support us and we are very scared of being labeled traditional and anti-gay marriage lest protesters and news crews show up at our door. We do not want to make the politicans angry and jeopardize our Greek Independence day parade, our annual visit to the White House and our invitation to the UN and we wont say a word to cause you any trouble. We do not want to do anything to jeopardize our invitations to cushy political dinners and events. And our the head of Our office of Church and Society….. well he wont be a problem because there is this thing called facebook that keeps him distracted all day.”

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By: George Patsourakos https://www.aoiusa.org/goa-speaks-out-on-new-york-same-sex-marriage-bill/#comment-20654 Sun, 03 Jul 2011 20:17:20 +0000 https://www.aoiusa.org/?p=10253#comment-20654 In reply to Rob.

The severity of the issue of violating the teachings of the Christian Church that a legislator votes for must be considered, so that the legislator is punished accordingly. For example, same-sex marriage or abortion support by a legislator must be considered to be more serious than support for the sale of condoms. Determination of punitive action, then, must be decided on a case-by-case basis.

In fact, a bishop in Rhode Island criticized and punished former U.S. Rep. Kennedy (D-RI) about two years ago for supporting abortion in Congress. The bishop forbade then-Rep. Kennedy from receiving Holy Communion in the Catholic Church, until he repented and asked God to forgive him for this sin.

The bishop of Brooklyn, New York last week forbade New York Gov. Cuomo and legislators, who voted for same-sex marriage, from attending any Catholic school or church function in his diocese. I, personally, believe he should also forbid them from receiving Holy Communion in the Catholic Church, unless they repent for voting as they did, and ask God to forgive them.

In short, a legislator needs to use his conscience when voting for or against an issue relating to his religion. I believe that it would behoove a legislator — when deciding how to vote on a religious issue — to ask himself, “How would God want me to vote on this issue?” and then vote accordingly.

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By: Rob https://www.aoiusa.org/goa-speaks-out-on-new-york-same-sex-marriage-bill/#comment-20651 Sun, 03 Jul 2011 17:57:01 +0000 https://www.aoiusa.org/?p=10253#comment-20651 In reply to George Patsourakos.

George, do you believe that Catholic/Orthodox politicians are obliged, upon penalty of sin and/or excommunication, to vote against laws that decriminalize sinful conduct or for laws that criminalize them whenever they come up, or does it vary depending on the gravity of the sin involved? If so, to whom must they refer when determining the “official” Church position on it? Are there no other considerations permitted for a politician?

For example: we all know the official RCC position on the use of contraception (even within marriage). The problem is that not all denominations in our representative republic share that view (just as some liberal denominations do not categorically condemn homosexual conduct). Nonetheless, would a Catholic politician have been obliged to vote against the legalization of the sale of contraceptive devices when the issue first arose?

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By: George Patsourakos https://www.aoiusa.org/goa-speaks-out-on-new-york-same-sex-marriage-bill/#comment-20650 Sun, 03 Jul 2011 17:34:07 +0000 https://www.aoiusa.org/?p=10253#comment-20650 The Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America could have — indeed, should have — taken a more aggressive stand against same-sex marriage in New York state.

For example, the Catholic bishop of Brooklyn has forbidden New York Governor Cuomo and New York legislators, who voted for same-sex marriage, from attending any Catholic school or church function in his diocese. AOI blog readers can read about this Christian catastrophe — including its antithesis to Christianity — in more detail by reading a commentary I wrote last night titled “N.Y. Governor, Legislators Renounce Teachings of Christ.” Readers can access it on my Theology and Society blog at where it appears on the first page.

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By: cynthia curran https://www.aoiusa.org/goa-speaks-out-on-new-york-same-sex-marriage-bill/#comment-20647 Sun, 03 Jul 2011 17:01:36 +0000 https://www.aoiusa.org/?p=10253#comment-20647 Agree, its true about several marriages but that doesn’t mean homosexaul marriage should be legal. I remember Leo the Wise in Byzantine history was also marriage 4 times and finally got around it. But he did make some good moral laws concerning these matters even if he like Rush should not have marriage 4 times.

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By: Fr. Johannes Jacobse https://www.aoiusa.org/goa-speaks-out-on-new-york-same-sex-marriage-bill/#comment-20644 Sun, 03 Jul 2011 05:51:15 +0000 https://www.aoiusa.org/?p=10253#comment-20644 In reply to Isaac.

Isaac, we don’t live for the state so the notion of doing the state a favor shouldn’t enter into the discussion. (I’m not a liberal hence the notion of serving the state as substitution for loving your neighbor is repugnant to me.) Further, the state “validates” marriage only in the sense that legal benefits accrue to those married in accordance with the traditional definition of marriage. These laws are simply a reflection of culture, nothing more although they implicitly affirm the importance of the traditional norm. Gay activists recognize this too but go at it from the other direction. They want to change the law in order to change the culture.

You are correct that Christians themselves have become secularized. This is true of Orthodox believers as well.

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By: Isaac https://www.aoiusa.org/goa-speaks-out-on-new-york-same-sex-marriage-bill/#comment-20642 Sun, 03 Jul 2011 05:33:34 +0000 https://www.aoiusa.org/?p=10253#comment-20642 The way to counter gay marriage would be for Christians to bow out of civil marriage altogether and state that they only recognize church marriages. Yes, it is a bit of a scorched earth policy, but it is also a way of taking away the prize of legitimacy. After all, it is the stable relationship for raising children that does the state a favor, not the other way around. Christians no more need the government to put a stamp of approval on their marriages than they do to validate their baptisms. The problem is Christians now often see their legal marriage as more substantial than their sacramental one.

Imagine if all the Christians who only had Church marriages had very low divorce rates compared to the larger culture. That would be a far more powerful witness than trying to get people who don’t care about God to live as if they do.

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By: Fr. Johannes Jacobse https://www.aoiusa.org/goa-speaks-out-on-new-york-same-sex-marriage-bill/#comment-20640 Sun, 03 Jul 2011 00:48:21 +0000 https://www.aoiusa.org/?p=10253#comment-20640 The law affirms the traditional definition of marriage by offering no legal benefits to arrangements that violate that cultural definition (fathers cannot marry daughters, mothers cannot marry sons, marriage is restricted to two people, a person cannot marry a person of the same sex, and so forth). There is no intrinsic right to marry that emanates from the state; the state merely affirms what Christian culture has practiced for over two thousand years.

The gay rights lobby wants marriage not for the legal benefits (that can be obtained other ways) but for the social sanction that legal recognition would provide. They want to shift the culture. And you’re right, the serial marriages of people like Rush Limbaugh and other well known people have contributed to the erosion.

Don’t draw too strong a distinction between Christian and civil marriage. Marriage predates the Church. It even predates the Fall. Marriage is within the order of creation which is why we see heterosexual monogamy even in non-Christian cultures. It cannot be separated from family and procreation, something which our condom culture has great difficulty comprehending in any positive way. Christian marriage ties the marriage vocation to salvation in Christ and thus extends the teleology beyond the assurance of survival in old age that children provide. But the non-Christian marriage cannot be reduced to a civil contract alone. Only we moderns who see children as either a consumer item or liability tend to think this way.

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By: Rob https://www.aoiusa.org/goa-speaks-out-on-new-york-same-sex-marriage-bill/#comment-20639 Sat, 02 Jul 2011 22:36:52 +0000 https://www.aoiusa.org/?p=10253#comment-20639 I’m confused as to what relation the Sacrament of marriage as bestowed by the Church has to the entity known as civil marriage — even before gay marriage became legal. As it stands, there was almost no vetting done in terms of who can apply for a civil marriage license, other than they have a pulse. There is no questioning of the applicants in terms of either a desire or capacity to have children: to the contrary, convicted felons who should not be within a mile’s radius of a child have been deemed to have a “constitutional right” to marry. Further, there is no question about how many times one has been married previously, whether their spouse-to-be is a believer or not or if they have a desire or even capacity to bear children.

This doesn’t even address the confusion caused by pastors like Ken Hutcherson of Antioch Bible Church who blessed the fourth (and clearly unbiblical) marriage of celebrity commentator Rush Limbaugh.

Given the above facts, is it really any wonder why gays question why they should be barred from entering into a contractual agreement that, for quite some time, has had barely any similarity to the Sacrament the Church actually regards as marriage?

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