However, let us be honest. My first point stands, and that’s what’s really criminal: the EP does not want a united, autocephalous church. It’s OK for Albania, and even autonomy is OK for Estonia, but the USofA, that’s where the money is.

Now, let me tell you why I asked those questions: because the Phanar doesn’t care one way or the other about them either. All it wants is to make sure that the GOA never becomes part of an autocephalous American church. And it will never do anything to rock that boat. Consider, where was the Phanar all these years when things were going down- hill liturgically-wise in the GOA? And now that the monastic movement is taking off, why is it pouring cold water over it? Am I overstating the case? I’ve seen priests and even bishops cower like schoolgirls before the secularists elements in the typical GOA parish. (Let’s leave aside the fact that more than a few bishops have thrown priests under the bus in order to placate these same secularists.)

I like to cut through the BS, and 95% of those things that I find distasteful about Orthodoxy in America (organs, pews, worldly priests, anti-monasticism) are found overwhelmingly in the GOA, not the OCA/ROCOR. I know, +Philip also disparages them as well, the difference is that he’s losing control of his jurisdiction and more priests in the AOCA look like traditional Orthodox priests. (Plus, to give credit where it is due, it is only his jurisdiction that has opted out of the NCC.)

So, when all is said and done, we’re back to where we started from: an unserious (about Orthodopraxy) Phanar deadly serious about only one thing: no united, autocephalous American Orthodox Church. And the tragedy is that the people in the GOA are going to allow it to not happen, and then complain like they always do.

George,

First let me correct your reference to what I said (as I usually have to do). I did not say that the EP “wants an autocephalous, administratively united American Church” I said “in the past that the EP/GOA has perhaps not done enough to lead towards unity in the US, I think the EP is doing its best to do so now.” That being said, your question about putting the kibosh on it 15 years ago is not ungracious just inaccurate and irrelevant.

That being said I will address your questions.

1. I like good, a Capella choirs more so than chanters. It is my preference. I do not like organ music in the church nor do I like those little organ like instruments that keep a note for the chanter (I believe it is called the eeson note).

2. I prefer that priests wear a cassock (anderi) and a beard. I think an Orthodox priest should dress like an Orthodox priest. Does the robe and beard make the priest? Of course not and I know MANY good priests who wear roman collars and are clean-shaven. The problem is WHY many priests started dressing that way years ago. They did so because they wanted to fit in, they did not want to be different. That is not a good reason.

3. One of the biggest problems we have in the US is that for too long, the Church only existed in a partial form I the US. The presence of monasteries was sorely absent in the GOA and some other jurisdictions. Sadly, this was largely due to the late Abp Iakovos (whom I knew well and loved a great deal). This was perhaps one of his biggest mistakes in his 37-year tenure. That being said, I don’t believe Fr. Elpidophoros views were anti Athonite. He commented on some monasteries in the US with certain peculiarities. I have been to several of the Fr. Ephraim monasteries and some places I found peace, spirituality and love while in others I felt what I considered to be a strange type of mind control aura. Not all monasteries are the same and I don’t believe that there was a blanket anti-Athonite view put forth.

4. Again, as I so often have to do, I must correct your reference. Fr. did not say “too many of the parish priests in general are married? What he said was “It is particularly saddening that the crisis in priestly vocation has decreased dramatically the number but also the quality of celibate priests…” There is a difference between the two statements. Fr. Elpidophoros statement is indeed true.

Here is one more answer to a question you did not ask:

5. I think it was a mistake to change the calendar. I don’t believe one calendar is more sacred than another as tall time is created anyway so it really does not matter. What is wrong, largely because of Pat. Meletios Metaxakis, we do no0t all celebrate the feast days together. That is sad and should not have been done unless the whole Church agreed.

Dear Dean,

Don’t give up your day job.

Warmest regards,
Tom K

Christos Anesti!!!

Re:I have read Fr. Elpidophoros speech again, and my opinion is unchanged. I think he is right on target.

I’m wondering if you are using the Greek version of the speech, or if you are just reading it upside down…

Try reading left to right…top to bottom.

It will make a big difference.

Best Regards,
Dean

I’d like to ask you a question specifically about Lambrianides’ critique of the GOA: do you agree with him that it’s become too westernized (choirs with robes, organs, priests wearing Roman collars, etc.) Do you also agree with his harsh assessment of the Athonite monasteries? Do you also agree with him that too many of the parish priests in general are married? These are specific criticisms of his and I’d like direct answers from those who think his speech was the cat’s meow.

Just so you know here are my responses to his critiques:

1. Yes, I agree with him: I don’t particularly like choirs with robes and organs.

2. I prefer priests in cassocks (although I’m not too hopped up one way or the other).

3. I completely disagree with his anti-Athonite views.

4. No I disagree with him: I think parish priests should be married. All things being equal, it is unconscionable to place a celibate man in a parish setting, as it could play havoc with his own salvation. (This actually is the traditional Orthodox view btw.)

George,

I have read Fr. Elpidophoros speech again, and my opinion is unchanged. I think he is right on target. I think your assesment that all it contains is byzantine nostalgia and historical half truths is at best simply a false statement.

While I have posted in the past that the EP/GOA has perhaps not done enough to lead towards unity in the US, I think the EP is doing its best to do so now.

Jurisdictional disunty has not prevented any jurisdiction from placing more emphasis on evangelism. This lack of effort is a separate issue and is indeed a failure.

However, I am happy to see that you finaly realize that your critricism of some hierarchs (such as Abp Demetrios) is unduly offered.

Another gizmo I use (very helpful in conjunction with GTD) is http://www.jott.com. Voice to text for email reminders to self (no more endless scraps of papers), voice to google calendar for appointments, voice to http://www.xpenser.com to track expenses and mileage, etc. etc. — all through a phone call. I have jott hot-keyed on my Blackberry. Very simple. $3 or so a month. Definitely worth it.

Anyone wondering what I am talking about: There are two ways to organize: top-down, or bottom-up. Top-down (Covey and company — start with goals and work down) never worked for me. Bottom-up (Allen and company — clean the clutter and free you mind for more creative stuff) works for me, and many others it seems. Lots to say here but Allen’s promise was that if you adopt (and adapt) his system, the constant psychological pressure of “open loops” (remembering unfinished tasks) would lift opening up new avenues of creativity, etc. Goals would emerge from that. Well, it works for me. Plus I get of ton more stuff done.

Thanks Father. I would point out the origin of the word irenic, but that might start a whole new thread. 😉

PS: The title of the book?

Christ is risen. No, I haven’t been to anywhere near that number of parishes. It’s 98% anecdotal. A lot of it is second and third-hand, from people who e-mail me. I can say that I’ve been to way more GOA parishes about 50% in my life, and –again, this is a random sampling–attendance at Vespers is spotty. A lot cities I’ve been to, don’t even have Vespers. Again, that’s not all, I never said that, it’s just a stereotype, based on a random sampling.

There are lots of stereotypes about the different jurisdictions. For example in OCA, I’ve heard that it’s mandatory for women to wear scarves, that Confession in ROCOR is mandatory before EACH Communion, etc.

I know you think I have an agenda. I don’t, or rather, I do: true administrative unity, but one based on love and fidelity to the truth, not to any ethnic agenda (save American, that’s canonical as we are in America). The reason I’ve been unduly harsh on bishops like +Demetrius is because White House stunts diminish the perception of our faith. If +Jonah did the same thing, I’d be disappointed as well. As a Greek-American, I’ve always felt that it was incumbent upon us to spearhead the drive to unity and evangelism. Greek-speaking people did it in the Middle Ages, I don’t see why we can’t do it again.

Read Lambrianides’ speech again. Carefully. See if you see anything in there about creating a Local Church, one that is American and that will outreach to Americans. Instead, all we get is Byzantine nostalgia, and historical half-truths.

And don’t think I haven’t put my intellectual money where my mouth is: I’ve taken the time to draft a comprehensive blueprint for craeting a united American Church which Fr Hans was good enough to publish on this website. It takes into considerall ALL bishops here and gives pride of place to NO jurisdiction. I can’t get any more dispassionate and devoid of an agenda than that.

in Christ, Geo, a sinner

Fr. Hans,

I guess we are going to have to disagree on this one. I just do not see the things you see in Fr. Elpidophoros speech. In fact in so many ways I see the exact opposite of the so called confluence of Orthodoxy and Hellenism. I guess everybody sees things through the filter of their own opinions and experiences. How the canon is interpreted, whether the GOA is more concerned with Hellenism than the Gospel, what is the best path to unity in the US. We clearly will not agree.

I do know one thing for certain, if we do not find some way to constructively address these issues but rather continue to use tactics of attack and criticism, then we will never see unity in the US.

People fear what they don’t know and I believe that there is a great deal of lack of knowledge by many posters here about what really goes on in the EP/GOA parishes. They see superficial things (like a meeting with the president on March 25) and then they also hear things from sources which are not always reliable or knowledgable themselves (often former GOA faithful who have their own agenda). This creates a certain expectation among them. Then they hear a speech that has some things in it they find (or are told are) disagreeable and it sort of takes on a life of its own from there.

Many people are all too willing to post things about which they have little or no actual knowledge. Let me give you an example. A few days ago, George Michalopoulos wrote a post (#138 in a thread entitled “Met. Jonah to old world bishops…”) in which he stated the following:

“I’ll be glad to provide you some context: In most OCA/ROCOR parishes, the ratio of Vespers attendees to Liturgy attendees is 1:3 or 1:2. Also, I see a higher percentage of people showing up before the Gospel rather than after the Great Entrance (i.e. just in time for Communion). I don’t want to make this a comparison game, just trying to point out some irregularities in your arguments.”

I remember thinking to myself “hmmm, and George knows this because…..he has visited most of OCAs 650 parishes and ROCORs 150 parishes?”

You see, comments like this are intended to leave an impression in the context of a larger discussion. Now unless OCA and ROCOR keep statistics such as these which can verify the comment (and I doubt they do as they are not on their website) then the comment is really quite silly and of no real value. But, as I said before, it does leave an impression in the context of a larger discussion. Then George had the nerve to accuse the GOA of making up its account of Abp Dimitrios meeting with the ROCOR synod becasue it was different from what was written on ROCORs webdsite, not contradictory mind you, just different.

Instead of people looking for themselves beyond the sound bytes and editorials of people (some more accurate than others) to see what is really going on, they believe what they are told and take it at that. I cannot do that. Either from the GOA or from those posting here. If I believed for a minute that the fears some put forth regarding Fr. Elpidophors comments were real, I would be right beside you. But they are not. If I believed for a minute that the GOA was more concerned about Hellenism than the Gospel I would be right beside you, but they are not.

Just look at the GOA budgets (budgets which I might add are much easier to find than for the OCA or AOCA, how’s that for transparency) and see the resources dedicated to Youth Ministry, Religious Education, Marriage and Family, Outreach and Evangelism, Communications etc compared to what is dedicated to Greek education.

So Father, fogive me if I do not see the comments Fr. Elpidophoros makes to be so frightening or if I do not accept that the GOA places more emphasis on Hellenism than the Gospel. I respect you and your commitment to the Faith a great deal. I respect your opinions on a variety of matters and agree with them on most. But in this case, I think you are perhaps adding to unsubstantiated fears. Of one thing I am certain, I believe that your motives are sincere and that your only prayer is for what is good for the Church and Her faithful and what will help us bring the Gospel to as many people as possible. I am not certain that this is the case for everyone.

Warmest Regards,

Tom K

PS: What was the name of that book we spoke about tyhe other day regarding organizing ones self (see how much I need it).

As for the road that Orthodoxy will take should Lambrianides’ vision prevail, I know where it leads: to extinction. Again, the phrase “Byzantine Nostalgia Society” is not mockery nor excessive in my opinion. It’s essentially no different than a Renaissance Fair. That’s why I took the time to respond to it as I did several weeks ago.

Just as some accuse the EP of having a vested interest in their interpretation, likewise the OCA, AOCA and MP all have a vested interest in their own interpretation.

Well, yes, but…

Everyone has an interest because the different interpretations have different ramifications. American Orthodoxy will be profoundly affected whether it takes the road Fr. Elpidophoros proposed, or whether it unites towards eventual autocephaly or whatever decision is finally hammered out. These ideas about the future of Orthodoxy in America are not neutral. That’s why they need to be discussed.

Again, it’s the way we Americans do things. Talk is loud and raucous, especially about things we hold important, but once the decision is made we settle in. And this is a cultural characteristic Fr. Elpidophoros’ did not understand, which is why so many people took offense as the heavy-handed tone he took. Speaking in terms of tactical persuasion alone, the talk was a blunder. It obviously was meant to close the question of autocephaly, when in fact it opened it even wider. Ironically, the bare revelation of Constantinople’s interest brought the other interests into sharper focus. So let the debates continue. It’s the American way. We’ll sort it out.

I do not think this would be the case. I believe in a fairly substantial portion of the OCA and AOCA there is resentment towards the EP/GOA for many reasons, (some perhaps valid but most not valid) that would not vanish. I think this is evidenced by the fact that on this site (and others like it) EVERYTHING the EP does is criticized or interpreted through filters which question the motives.

This is too easy an explanation Tom. It doesn’t address the issues raised by Fr. Elpidophoros, i.e.: Canon 28, the conflation of the Gospel and Hellenism — all the issues we have discussed. I am not arguing that no people have resentment. Some people probably do. It is also probably true that people of resentment exist on both sides.

But I don’t think this point is particularly relevant to the discussion. Nor do I think that because some people argue both sides of Canon 28 (although I think it is fair to say that the new interpretation is less compelling than the traditional one), that the historical record is murky. I’m not so sure it is.

I don’t think these arguments are going to go away. I can respect your position (and I do respect it), but I think the alarm generated by Fr. Elpidophoros’s talk is stronger than you might believe. That was my point about three conferences on Orthodox unity being held this summer alone. I mentioned them not to score a polemical point, but to show that a shift has occurred in the culture of American Orthodoxy. Something is simmering, and I think Fr. Elpidophoros’ talk, unwittingly most likely, increased the heat.

Fr. Hans,

Re: #16

“The effort of the Church to bring the Gospel of Jesus Christ as it is understood and comprehended in our Orthodox faith to the American nation will be muted, most likely subsumed to promoting the political interests of the Greek omogenia.”

I believe that this concern is speculative at best and is not borne out by the facts. Especially when one looks at the other groups (UOC and ACROD) which are under the EP in the US. There is absolutely no reason to believe that it would be any different if all the Orthodox were united under the omophorion of the EP. There is nothing in Fr. Elpidophoros comments which indicate anything to the contrary.

As someone else mentioned (I forget who) I think it would be better in the US if the UOC and ACROD hiererachs were also on the eparchial synod and I hope this will some day be a fact. That would be an even better model for a unified Church under the omophorion of the EP.

Sadly, I think comments such as yours above, create unwarranted fear (in some cases that is not intended, but in others it is intended).

On a second note, I don’t dismiss the discussion of canon 28 too easily. I merely accept the reality that hierarchs and theologians are on both sides of the issue. If these QUALIFIED individuals are not in agreement with the interpretation, then clearly it is not a done deal. I have seen no one on this site better qualified to decide and thus we end up with each side spinning it their way. Just as some accuse the EP of having a vested interest in their interpretation, likewise the OCA, AOCA and MP all have a vested interest in their own interpretation.

I think, in general, many on this site are too quick to assign motives based upon their own agendas and opinions. Perhaps I have occasionally done the same. This makes everyone more willing to vilify the “other side”. Very sad.

“I am also convinced that if the Ecumenical Patriarch adopted stronger moral leadership, his support would grow, and the Hellenic ideals that he seeks to preserve (which, I believe, need to be preserved, and the preservation of which could also contribute to the moral renewal of America society) would stand a much greater chance of preservation.”

I do not think this would be the case. I believe in a fairly substantial portion of the OCA and AOCA there is resentment towards the EP/GOA for many reasons, (some perhaps valid but most not valid) that would not vanish. I think this is evidenced by the fact that on this site (and others like it) EVERYTHING the EP does is criticised or interpreteted through filters whuich question the motives. I think, years ago when the EP was weaker and did not exhibit such a high profile in the world, there was no need for such animosity and concern. Now, the more exposure the EP has, the more the critics attack every little thing.