Scott, thanks for the additional info. Yep, all things being equal, the EP was knocked down a few pegs.

George,

Couple of other interesting – – but not too significant – – items: 1) Both Patriarchs are described with the same honorific, “His Holiness”. 2) Also, President Medvedev refers to the two churches as “sister churches”. I didn’t read through the whole text so I don’t know what comes after the first few paragraphs. My Russian’s not that good yet and most of what I skimmed through looked like boilerplate.

Harry I don’t disagree with the main thrust of your argument. Thoe extreme Islamification of Turkey presents its own problems as well. As far as Islamic homophobia however, the reality is far more complex than the jihadis would have us believe. In reality, in Muslim nations that are polygamous, homosexuality and pederasty are very prominent. In fact, in the Af-Pak region, pederasty and ephebophilia is rampant. The hypocrisy is that Muslims don’t view sodomists as being engaged in homosexuality, just sodomites (aka catamites).

Our problem as Orthodox is that our bishops have acceded to the concept of dhimmitude. What we need to do is two things:

1. start evangelizing (a la Fr Boutros Zakaria) on 24/7 Arabic language cable channels like Al-Hurrat, Al-Jazeera, etc., and

2. start demanding that Orthodox and other Christian denomination churches be built in Muslim lands, esp. Saudi Arabia. Always demand it, unceasingly and without equivocation.

Once we start acting like men then the Muzzies will back down.

George I agree that had the EP appeared alone with the civil leader in the leader’s capital it would have been worse. I rather doubt that was ever in the cards though.

If the harsher governement in Turkey gains altitude maybe the EP will determine his interests are threatened to such an extent he’ll deem it wise to move. I’d hate to see Orthodoxy totally leave anywhere though.

Really, really the long term answer for Orthodoxy and Islam is so simple: senior married clergy to be bishops. Islamic people just don’t respect never having been married as a defacto leadership requirement. What never married bishops do to married Christian people looks to Islamic folk exactly like the dhimmitude system they impose on all non-Moslems. That and full-boat actual almost compassionless homophobia.

Harry, please understand, I’m on your side here. I’m glad that his papalist pretensions were knocked out of the ballpark by +Kirill.

George– The point you make about the EP not appearing alone with the head of state such as the pope would do, but only with the local patriarch: Is a great thing. The local Orthodox patriarch has always been and remains senior to any visiting Orthodox dignitary of any rank from anywhere. Whether Russia today or the smallest autocephalous church.

Indeed a full local bishop remains ‘senior’ so to speak over any other visiting bishop in the diocese. Only the synod can force a bishop to change a decision.

That’s the difference between Orthodox and Vatican style church ecclesiology. Now in countries where Rome’s way of doing things has pressured the legal definitions there is a huge temptation dangled in front of Orthodox leadership to make use of the Vatican style strictly hierarchical foriegn control pathways etched into the law. The problem of course is that if the Orthodox people wanted to be Vatican / Roman Catholic they already have lots of chances to do that. Our survival depends on not trying to out-rome Rome or out-congregational the congregationalists.

Is that wrong? I prefer the EP having a minder with him. Too bad he didn’t on his visit here.