Tamara,

FYI it’s stamata not stomata.

If you do not want to argue, why must you continually ignore my point and try to get the last word in with your erroneous assumptions.

So stop arguing.

Stop putting forward your erroneous assumptions.

Stop making the GOA the problem behind everything.

Try to be open minded to facts and opiniosn which differ from your own beliefs.

Stop making this about loss of membership in the GOA (and you must certainly realize in other jurisdictions as well). We are not in disagreement about those things.

In order to really be sincere about wanting the Church to be unified in the US, you must stop ignoring the fact that the “opportunistic mission parishes” which do what I explained NUMEROUS times are not real mission parishes and they cause a problem in inter jurisdictional relations. They thus become a stumbling block to unity. Your stubborness and unwillingness to see this fact is making the problem worse.

Read Fr. Hans comments on this issue and perhaps you will begin to understand the problem.

Of course if he did that, the need for a good bishop in Dallas would be greatly magnified plus +Job would likely have a bunch of new folks on his hands.

If Met. Philip has ANY sense at all he will leave +Basil alone.

God forgive us all, we appear to be a stiff-necked people.

If my assumptions are not correct, then the GOA numbers wouldn’t agree with my anecdotal experience (parishes are not meeting the needs of its people). And if your anecdotal experiences are correct (large parishes are trying to meet the needs) and the GOA is still losing members, then someone needs to revisit the true needs of its members.

Stomata! This discussion is going nowhere and we are wasting time arguing with one another.

Tamara,

I am not arguing with numbers at all. I don’t dispute those numbers.

I merely pointed out that you are making erroneous assumptions based upon your own predjudices and your experience with parishes in your area.

I will add that those erroneous assumptions have clouded your ability or willingness to accept the fact that the instances I describe and the history of the establishment of multiple jurisdictions are analagous.

As a matter of fact I agree with the article by Peter Keheyes. Nothing in the article contradicts my point about the “mission parishes” to which I refer in my specific examples.

Tamara’s point (and by extension, mine) is that regardless of our inherent sinfulness (mine worst of all), it is incumbent upon the Church to be the Church. The article that Tamara quoted an important part of the prophetic witness of the Church, the ability to be humble and introspective. I was gratified to read it because for all too often, all we get out of many churches is nothing but triumphalism and arrogance.

Forgive me if I misunderstood. BTW, how is Bishop +Basil doing? We would love to have him as Bishop of Dallas since there’s still a vacancy and I don’t know what the ultimate situation regarding the whole “auxiliary” bishop status is.

For us to decide which people those are based upon such artificial and meaningless criteria as language, ethnicity, material wealth, etc. is IMO approaching blasphemy. Conciliar means just that, it has to be dynamic and pastoral, anything else is just stupid.

That is the reason for the Church to be a vehicle for the call and to receive those who respond, nuturing their growth in the Kingdom. Its that simple and that hard. Until we decide to really follow our calling (individually and corporately) no number of debates on ecclesiology, churgh growth and dynamics, theology, etc. will bear the fruit we want.

This unwillingness on your part to face the facts is what I mentioned earlier. You are arguing with the GOA numbers not with me. Most Greek Orthodox Churches are large (over 250 families). Whatever the majority of these churches may or may not be doing, they are not meeting the needs of their people because if they were, they would not be reporting losses as noted below from the article by Peter Kehayes.

Fr. Hans provided the statistics from the GOA article, “FOR US AND THE CHURCH WE LOVE: THE TIME IS NOW,” by Peter S. Kehayes.

The current statistics and the trends they portend are very compelling. The Orthodox Yearbook (2003) statistics show that intermarriages comprise two of every three (65%) marriages that occur within the Church. Within the same report, adding those that occur outside its aegis, the estimate climbs to 75 – 80%. At this attrition rate, within three generations, less than 2% non-intermarried Greek Orthodox Christian families remain. With intermarriages becoming the norm, the need to address this concern becomes immediate.

If more evidence is needed, young families, the building blocks of the Church, are less prominent in our religious communities. Supporting organizations such as choirs, Sunday school teachers and parish councils are most often comprised of senior members of the community. The average age seems to be increasing disproportionately in established communities. In many, we see seniors the majority of active communicants, and though their presence is essential for stability, it is the young who assure its future. Yes, youth programs are effective in enabling the young to become active in church activities, but will they as adults, when it is their time, continue to grace the Church, bringing their own gifts while benefiting from its treasures twenty years hence? In a drastically decreasing Church population, one must question, Are we doing enough to ensure this legacy for future generations?

Michael,

Fathers point is very well made about what it takes to meet th needs of a parish. I wish we could have more parishes of that size. My parish should be 4 or 5 parishes according to fathers point, and I think he is correct.

However, I believe that in the context of this discussion, when people say that a parishe isn’t meeting the needs of its parishioners, I think it is a pretty safe bet that they mean that language and cultural events are an issue. Too much Greek/Arabic/Romanian/Slavonic etc.

I am not agreeing with that yardstick, rather I am just pointing that I believe this is what is meant. I could be wrong.

Tamara,

The “erroneous assumption” I was referring to in 44 refer to your assumptions that large ethnic parishes are not trying to meet the needs of their parishioners. All of their parishioners.

That is an erroneous assumption based upon your own predjudices and experiences at some parishes.

Re: 52

“…like all generalizations, her observation can’t be right in all particulars.”

George, this clause is exactly why I tried to be very specific in stating that I was speaking about “some” of the mission parishes.

Sadly, no matter how narrowly I tried to define my point, there was no give and take. No acknowledgement that a problem exists and that the situation I described was in its very essence, the same situation which occurred in the US which led to the establishment of various jurisdictions.

The problem with stereotypes is that they are just as often not true. When you say that 75% of the NBA players are black, that is not a sterotype. It is a quantifiable statistic (though I do not know if the percentage is exactly 75% but you get the point). Whe you say “So and so ia black so he must be a good basketball player” that is a stereotype.

There may be a perception that “ethnic parishes” (i.e. Serb/Greek/Arab/Ukrainian/Bulgarian/Russian etc, and even many OCA parishes are ethnically Russian) are not evangelistic in outlook, it will be true in some instances and not true in others. Neither you, nor Tamara nor I can be sure nor should we make generalizations like this or be so willing to assume the worst.

The problem I described is a reality in SEVERAL areas I know of personally, and it is a stumbling block. When we show a lack of concern for issues like this, or write them off out of hand, we are not doing something which imptoves the chances of unity in the US.

When the count gets to 250 and above, the focus is mainly on the sacramental responsibilities (services, baptisms, weddings, etc.), administrative tasks (meetings mostly, which increase as the ministries in the parish grow), and crisis situations. He is usually over-worked at this point (60+ hours a week, home only 2 or 3 evenings a week, if that), and personal contact with all parishioners, as well as the necessary time for creative reflection greatly diminishes.

Tamara,

“Drawing a parallel to his mission and the failure of the large ethnic churches is wrong. Most large ethnic churches are failing because they have NOT tried to meet needs of the younger generations and their hetereodox spouses. So no, I don’t think these two situations correspond to one another.”

And herein lies my major disagreement and the reason that you are wrong in this point.

In all honesty, how do you know what “Most large ethnic churches…” are doing to try to try to meet the needs of the younger generations and heterodox spouses?

I know of several situations where a parish was struggling but trying very hard to meet the needs of ALL of its parishioners when one of the opportunistic “mission parishes” set up shop in the area and started peeling off parishioners. That is wrong.

I also know of many true mission parishes which are set up where there is no church, or where the local church is doing nothing to try to meet the needs of a segment of its population. In those cases I thank God the people had an alternative.