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Comments on: Bureaucratic Church and Imperial State https://www.aoiusa.org/bureaucratic-church-and-imperial-state/ A Research and Educational Organization that engages the cultural issues of the day within the Orthodox Christian Tradition Fri, 28 Aug 2009 04:40:25 +0000 hourly 1 https://wordpress.org/?v=6.3.3 By: cynthia curran https://www.aoiusa.org/bureaucratic-church-and-imperial-state/#comment-5798 Fri, 28 Aug 2009 04:40:25 +0000 https://www.aoiusa.org/?p=3212#comment-5798 Well if God could use the Byzantines or Eastern Romans who have more in common with us than we sometimes believe, then he certainly could use us or the country we live in. I was reading an article about child abuse in the Byzantine or Eastern Roman Empire. The article pointed out that like us they also had strong civil laws and church practice against such a thing but had that problem just as we do. We also have laws against it and all christians churches oppose it.

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By: Robert Fortuin https://www.aoiusa.org/bureaucratic-church-and-imperial-state/#comment-5768 Tue, 25 Aug 2009 02:37:36 +0000 https://www.aoiusa.org/?p=3212#comment-5768 I must be missing something (the secret hand shake?) but to whom are these last few messages directed? Where’s the boogey man? Let’s be careful not to demonize those we disagree with. Extremists on both sides can be easily found.

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By: Chrys https://www.aoiusa.org/bureaucratic-church-and-imperial-state/#comment-5765 Mon, 24 Aug 2009 23:19:15 +0000 https://www.aoiusa.org/?p=3212#comment-5765 Michael – exactly right! Very well said!
There are indeed too many who believe that holiness is SO “other” that its primary characteristic is exclusion. While such folks recognize that all have fallen short, they seem to focus mostly on how none “measure up” to their particular ideal. George is right: disdain for worldliness (or whatever group one wishes to criticize) carries no value if it is not deeply moved by wholehearted love for those in the world. What seems to be missing is the recognition that TRUE holiness is produced entirely by our participation in and synergy with the divine energies which are essentially characterized by love. Not the wishy washy, sentimental affection of popular imagination – but honest, gentle, humble, self-giving (they all go together, per I Cor. 13) love. Those who seem most intent on the purity of their practice too often seem to be so focused on doing it “right” that they miss that the purpose and true measure of “doing it right” is God’s love. If we possess even so much as a mustard seed of the life-giving love that flows from the inner life of the Trinity, we will inevitably build a vibrant community. If we do not see such fruit, we must ask what it is that is animating our community, because it may actually have very little to do with God.

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By: John Panos https://www.aoiusa.org/bureaucratic-church-and-imperial-state/#comment-5764 Mon, 24 Aug 2009 22:59:35 +0000 https://www.aoiusa.org/?p=3212#comment-5764 Let’s not forget, either….

these people is us.

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By: George Michalopulos https://www.aoiusa.org/bureaucratic-church-and-imperial-state/#comment-5762 Mon, 24 Aug 2009 20:15:58 +0000 https://www.aoiusa.org/?p=3212#comment-5762 Michael, well-said. You are right, there are too many pietists in America who truly disdain America and Americans. They think that the scabrous words of Rev Lambrianides are what Orthodoxy is really about.

In reality, his words represent an effete (dare I say it: effeminiate?) folderol that’s fobbed on us as authentic. Little or no Gospel and a lot of little “t” traditions.

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By: Michael Bauman https://www.aoiusa.org/bureaucratic-church-and-imperial-state/#comment-5761 Mon, 24 Aug 2009 19:26:49 +0000 https://www.aoiusa.org/?p=3212#comment-5761 It has seemed to me for some time that there are many “Orthoodx” who simply believe that the U.S. is not worthy of salvation. We are too barbarian, too aggressive and will automatically contaminate the pristine glory the faith and the Church have achieved in other places and times.

Granted the Greeks, the Slavs and the Syrians each have a whole boat load of saints (thank God!) and we don’t. Ignored is the fact that the ideal to which these people look never was as ideal as they believe (there were not saint around every corner). Never mind that the cultural and demographic reality of the United States is so vastly different than any kind the Church has faced before so that old models of holiness based on a village/agrarian social system simply won’t work (it is simply another utopian idealism). Never mind the fact that the myopic ghetto mentality is as far from Christian as one can get.

If we Orthodox cannot or will not build vibrant communities within the context of our society and culture, the Church is not really the Church or we have failed utterly to understand what the Church is.

There is certaily a lot of work to do in order to really take on the reality of the Church so that we can evangelize in a prophetic manner, but it is unlikely that we will be able to do that while arguing about turf and who is more Orthodox than whom. Fact is, none of us are and all of us are.

To those who seek the truth in humility the Church will be revealed. To those who want to exclude as many folks as possible from the Church, darkness will hide the truth from their eyes.

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By: John Panos https://www.aoiusa.org/bureaucratic-church-and-imperial-state/#comment-5759 Mon, 24 Aug 2009 15:36:31 +0000 https://www.aoiusa.org/?p=3212#comment-5759 Joe

Your last post seems to indicate that you either fear an American Orthodox Church, or you believe it will persecute the “real Orthodox” Church – which, of course, will do nothing in English.

While I agree that the leadership of the Church is too easily manipulated by yearnings for political power, it is precisely that which will be prevented by an American Orthodox Church.

Besides, even Cyprus has churches that do everything in English. No one is crying “Antichrist” over it there.

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By: Joe https://www.aoiusa.org/bureaucratic-church-and-imperial-state/#comment-5728 Sat, 22 Aug 2009 04:15:11 +0000 https://www.aoiusa.org/?p=3212#comment-5728 Re:”… the Orthodox in America will achieve unity, and that we will experience a flowering of Orthodoxy, and then the persecution starts.”

A nightmare scenario (cf. his 1956 Cheesefare homily) that St. John of Shanghai and SF described is the apostasy of many in the Church who will turn to the antichrist, because the enemy will allow services to continue and even support the building of churches. These apostates will point to the high “position” of the Church in society, i.e. the support of the antichrist, as evidence of his goodwill and interest in mutual beneficence.

Does this mean that these apostates will use the support of the antichrist to consolidate their position in the U.S? Will they denounce those who will not join them? Join the persecutors? Will this antichrist-approved Orthodox body become the “official” Orthodox Church during this evil time? Will “foreign” Orthodox Church bodies (e.g. Russians, Greeks) be expelled or liquidated? Will the antichrist fullfill the dreams of many for a united and truly American Orthodox Church?

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By: Joe https://www.aoiusa.org/bureaucratic-church-and-imperial-state/#comment-5717 Fri, 21 Aug 2009 22:48:06 +0000 https://www.aoiusa.org/?p=3212#comment-5717 Amin!

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By: Robert Fortuin https://www.aoiusa.org/bureaucratic-church-and-imperial-state/#comment-5716 Fri, 21 Aug 2009 21:54:02 +0000 https://www.aoiusa.org/?p=3212#comment-5716 OK. Glory and thanks to God for those Anthonites! There, I said it. :>)

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By: Joe https://www.aoiusa.org/bureaucratic-church-and-imperial-state/#comment-5715 Fri, 21 Aug 2009 21:48:26 +0000 https://www.aoiusa.org/?p=3212#comment-5715 Re: “Gotta hand it to those Athonites.”

No, rather give glory and thanks to God!

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By: John Panos https://www.aoiusa.org/bureaucratic-church-and-imperial-state/#comment-5703 Fri, 21 Aug 2009 14:38:48 +0000 https://www.aoiusa.org/?p=3212#comment-5703 Joe

I’m very familiar with the Troy P. story, and it is a wonderful testimony.

I guess I forgot that such stories never happen outside of Elder Ephraim’s monsteries….oh, wait, they do.

In fact, they are a tiny minority of such stories and testimonies. Not to discount the work of the Athonite monastery, but they are not missionary focused like, say, St. Patrick’s or St. Benedict’s – going to places where there were few Christians and evangelizing the local populace. They are doing their thing and people desiring a deeper monastic experience find them – and thank God for it.

But they aren’t the only monasteries in the US.

They are the best funded though. Gotta hand it to those Athonites.

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By: Tigger https://www.aoiusa.org/bureaucratic-church-and-imperial-state/#comment-5702 Fri, 21 Aug 2009 14:02:42 +0000 https://www.aoiusa.org/?p=3212#comment-5702 Fine. But these hidden “confessors”(note small c)are real,are suffering and ARE HERE! These are are the ones the Church notes are hidden. Practically,only if you experience this can you fully understand without wanting or waiting for a title. The Greeks have an expression “den variesse”(sorry for bad translation)which roughly means “who cares!?”. What the Lord cares should be the only criteria,and maybe they will finish and gain their official title. But don’t berate for what they suffer for Christ in the here and now!!!!

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By: Joe https://www.aoiusa.org/bureaucratic-church-and-imperial-state/#comment-5701 Fri, 21 Aug 2009 13:18:28 +0000 https://www.aoiusa.org/?p=3212#comment-5701 Tigger,

The Orthodox Church has various traditional Saint titles.

When the Church speaks of a “Confessor”, this is a Saint who suffered for the faith but was not martyred outright.

One should be a (little “c”) confessor daily in life, but the tile “Confessor” is given by the Church only to those who have already finished the race, the course of there lives, – and won.

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By: Tigger https://www.aoiusa.org/bureaucratic-church-and-imperial-state/#comment-5700 Fri, 21 Aug 2009 12:55:58 +0000 https://www.aoiusa.org/?p=3212#comment-5700 Fr. Johannes,
I will research that point on St.John you asked for…time does not allow me yet. But to say that”the age of confessors is presumptuos” is nonsense. Todays clergy and laity, who even speak about the issue you mention here (some in hiding,some open indicates that is somewhat true) Your right:no one asks to be a martyr or confessor,that’s sheer insanity! But,in todays confused priorities(anything other than right faith and right worship)people do suffer for speaking,sometimes at cost of position status even friends for standing firm in This Faith. Some of us are even made examples of “refusing to toe the Line”. But to say it is “presumptuos” implies first hand knowledge of confessing. People can confess and suffer silently,without public broadcast. Aside from morals or theology,how many clergy,laity and monastics are put out for what they confessed to be true?

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