John has a point though. The Roman Catholics never joined the NCC or WCC. The Orthodox have.

Your comments are an amalgam of absurdity and bigotry.

I truly believe that every single one posting here is smarter than I am. This does not mean that I’ll put my salvation in someones hands, no matter how smart or creative he is. It is not our intelligence that will save us. The fight is against the forces of darkness. Most of the time I quoted saints but perhaps I did not do it properly since you find it incomprehensible.

Do you know any Roman Catholics? Ever met a Protestant?

I’ve read the life and the works of a former Protestant, Fr. Seraphim Rose. He was truly brilliant! He dedicated his life to the translation of the lives and writing of saints
He understood that that is what is needed, because from there we get the guidance of the Holy Spirit. He was creative only based on what he read from the Holy Fathers. No optimism there nor a single sign “that the Holy Spirit is working toward such a union”. On the contrary, he said :”It is later than you think!”

Why is it that Roman Catholics have been skeptical about membership in the WCC and NCC while Orthodox Churches, by and large, have been enthusiastic participants?

I believe praying with the leaders of false religions ( or “religions who have parts of the truth”) is even worse than the WCC membership. It is to say that Messiah may have come or may be coming (when praying with Jews), that Christ is only a prophet although He said I am the Messiah (when praying with the Muslims). So, this is why I asked Fr. Hans since when praying with the leaders of false religions is a called moral leadership. I never got an answer.

Your irrational and unsubstantiated fears of Orthodox “apostasy” can only lead in one direction: to a vision of the Orthodox Church as a sect for the
Ultra-Orthodox elect.

I’ve cited saints John. I wish I can be happy and optimistic but I did not find much optimism in what the contemporary saint wrote. Just this: trust the Lord. Let me know if you know something else. Same thing about the Tsar, it is what St. John Maximovich wrote. Perhaps you do not know that he is venerated as a saint.

I’ve been around long enough to notice a sudden change of tone, even change of ‘direction’ on this site. This happened recently and I wonder why.

Your comments are an amalgam of absurdity and bigotry.

Do you know any Roman Catholics? Ever met a Protestant?

You’re looking for the scary spooks of godless ecumenism on this blog — where none exist. And a question for you: Why is it that Roman Catholics have been skeptical about membership in the WCC and NCC while Orthodox Churches, by and large, have been enthusiastic participants? Have we, that is we Orthodox, gone over to the Dark Side?

Allow me to lay your fears to rest about any union with Rome. I’m hazarding a theory here. There will be no union, or unia, with Rome in the near future because the laity of the Orthodox Church are not calling for it. That’s a safeguard against any power play from a church committee, phony council, or rogue hierarch. I will further hazard a corollary: There must be evidence to the whole Church that the Holy Spirit is working toward such a union.

You know, it says in the Bible that Jesus Christ prayed for the unity of the Church (“that they all may be one” John 17:21). I don’t think that was an interpolation into Scripture from Vatican polemicists. As to how such a unity could be effected in the 21st Century, I don’t know. As the president says, it’s above my pay grade.

Your irrational and unsubstantiated fears of Orthodox “apostasy” can only lead in one direction: to a vision of the Orthodox Church as a sect for the Ultra-Orthodox elect.

And this phrase “the betrayal of the Anointed of God, the Tsar.” What? I’d like to see a show of hands here from all those Americans desiring to live under Tsardom. All those with their hands raised will be immediately volunteered for serfdom!

So, enough of this. I’m not going to tolerate any more of these vicious statements.

John

All this talk about getting together to stop the degradation of mankind is just a pretext to go toward unity with Rome. This would be OK if I would not have seen were the Rome is heading: toward super-ecumenism. Those who want unity should just come HOME as the converts did.

The civilizations clash happened couple of centuries ago, when the Ottoman Empire was threatening the existence of the Christians. It was mainly the Orthodox who stood against them and praise the Lord here we are. We did not perish. because God was with us.

Then the communism came and the Orthodox paid
again with many lives. St John Maximovitch said that the Russians paid for their sins and for the betrayal of the Anointed of God, the Tsar.

From the forces of darkness point of view, the Communism had to go because it started to have same god parts: no drugs, no gay parades, far less divorces and immorality than the West. The Pope did not not brake the back of the Communism (this makes me smile). Even if he did, it was many decades after the communists broke the backs, lives and souls souls of the Orthodox. Once the communism fell there we go: gay parades, drugs in schools and everywhere
and so on.

Now we say: lets get together with the Catholics and all to stop the abortion, immorality and the degradation of man. . So, I ask again: what the Catholics and all (with their large numbers) did to stop this process which got very high momentum back in the 1960′ while the Orthodox were still
dying in prisons and camps? Too many tricks were tried (see Florence) to achieve unity, so why I would believe this is something else.

You claim to be against ecumenism, but there are many ecumenists in the OCL and it is a matter of time until until we’ll hear their voices.

This is just a step forward the great Apostasy. What
What st Ignatius Brianchaninov wrote is still valid today:

“The apostasy is allowed by God: do not try to stop it with your powerless hand. Keep away, guard yourself from it: and this will be enough from you. Get to know the spirit of the time, study it, so as to avoid its influence as far as possible.”

Why is this allowed by God? Because the Scripture has to be fullfiled: “to deceive, if it were possible, even the elect” (Matthew 24.24).

You may not see this now, but when you will, know what it is and get up.

May the Lord help us fight the good fight and Complete the path.

My only point was to warn Orthodox polemicists not to conceive of the Church in ideological, rather than existential, terms. The Church is not Orthodox because Orthodoxy is “true,” it is Orthodox when it abides in Truth. And Jesus Christ is the Truth. The first is a rhetorical construct, the second is a way of living, of being. It’s only when we are in communion with Christ — through prayer, obedience, the sacraments, all the things the Church teaches — that we can say the Church constitutes His body. It’s a dynamic, living reality that exists by our doing it, not merely declaring it.

Properly understood, to be Orthodox requires constant vigilance, constant repentance and turning toward our Savior. When this stops, which sometimes happens, then things happen in the name of “Orthodoxy” that are not at all Orthodox. For example, take the banishment of St. John Chrysostom by a council of Bishops led by the Patriarch of Antioch. Where was Christ here? — with St. John or with the Council? I submit with St. John even though his banishment was decreed in the name of fidelity to “Orthodoxy.”

If an Orthodox is to be admitted in the Baptist ‘church’ he hes to renounce his Orthodox baptism and undergo some sort of a pagan ritual. By being there we say that this is OK.

Baptists are not “pagans.” Words mean things Eliot, and “pagan” has a very definite meaning. Nonetheless, Jesus sat with sinners. Does this mean he approved their sin? Of course not. (Apologizes to any Baptist that might reading this.)

Look, in actual fact there is no such thing as the “true faith” or the “true Church.” It exists only as a rhetorical construct. The Church, to use the proper vocabulary, which is to say the words of scripture, is the “pillar and ground of the truth” but “truth” here is Christ.

What is the Creed about? I believe in One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church! Here is what ARCHBISHOP AVERKY says:

Because She is “the ground and pillar of the Truth,” “the gates of Hell cannot prevail against Her.” It follows, then, that the true Christian Church palpably unique since Christ established but one Church has always existed on earth and will exist to the end of time. She has received the promise of Christ, “I will be with you even unto the end of the age.” Can there be the slightest doubt that the Lord refers here to the Church? Any honest and sane judgment, any act of good conscience, anyone familiar with the history of the Christian Church, the pure and unaltered moral and theological teachings of the Christian religion, must confess that there was but one true Church founded by our Lord, Jesus Christ, and that She has preserved His Truth holy and unchanged. History reveals, moreover, a traceable link of grace from the holy Apostles to their successors and to the holy Fathers. In contrast to what others have done, the Orthodox Church has never introduced novelties into Her teachings in order to “keep up with the times”, to be “progressive”, “not to be left at the side of the road,” or to accommodate current exigencies and fashions which are always suffused with evil. The Church never conforms to the world.

In other words, the way of these “progressivists” is not our way. Their way is deceptive, and it is unfortunate that it is not evident to everyone. The “broader” or “larger view” alienates us from the Lord and His true Church. It is the road away from Orthodoxy. This view is sinister, maliciously invented by the Devil in order to deny us salvation. For us, however, we accept no innovations, but choose the ancient, proven way, the way in which true Christians have chosen to serve God for 2,000 years.

What we have today is indeed a damaged Orthodoxy:
http://www.roacusa.org/epistle1995.htm

We must admit that the successes of the dark powers that have been trying finally to destroy undamaged Orthodoxy, have been very great. But this is no reason for the faithful children of the Church of Christ to become despondent or to cease to struggle against these evil forces. The hierarch Ignaty Brianchaninov wrote: “The apostasy is allowed by God: do not try to stop it with your powerless hand. Keep away, guard yourself from it: and this will be enough from you. Get to know the spirit of the time, study it, so as to avoid its influence as far as possible.”

The Russian Orthodox Church is living through a harsh time, constricted now not by bloody persecutors, but by false brethren, who imitate Orthodoxy and call themselves the Russian Orthodox Church of the Moscow Patriarchate, the supposed successor of the Church of his Holiness Patriarch Tikhon. Its main aim is “to deceive, if it were possible, even the elect” (Matthew 24.24), so that there should be forever lost in our poor Fatherland the feeling of truth and the right understanding of what the Church really is.

Now I know for sure that those wise priest who insist that the Orthodox Church needs changes to in order to meet the needs of the people here in America are wrong. Those many converts who embraced the most traditional form of Orthodoxy prove this. The monasteries of Elder Ephraim prove the same thing. Now I know my way! What a relief! Thank you.

I’ve attended services in other churches (weddings, baptisms, etc.) but only as a congregant, never taking any kind of leadership role. I don’t see this as compromise.

I have this story: an Orthodox family baptized their daughter in the Orthodox Church. They invited their friends who are Baptists. NONE of them stepped in the Orthodox Church for the service, they only showed up for the party. I think we should learn here a lesson about non compromising.

If an Orthodox is to be admitted in the Baptist ‘church’ he hes to renounce his Orthodox baptism and undergo some sort of a pagan ritual. By being there we say that this is OK.

Forgive me Father.

I’ll use, when talking to someone looking for understanding this phrase: “Let me expand that a bit.” It takes the nugget that is true, then frames it in a larger context. It is missionary work in a way, except that often you are leading Christians into a deeper understanding of the Gospel.

At the same time He delivered the truth in far more direct terms than anywhere else, “I am He”, the Messiah.

Perhaps the concentration should be on what truth they do have, as that is what Jesus did with Photini, He confirmed her expectation of the Messiah. It would also seem that is the manner in which Ortodox missonaries have always acted, confirming the God inspired truth they find and completing the story for those with whom they work. What I somewhat irreverantly call the Paul Harvey approach—“and now for The Rest of the Story….”

Thank you, Father for your correction.

Nobody is asking us to pray with them at these gatherings and or workings-together (I know, incorrect word). I will vote for the most viable, pro-life, electable official. Even if he’s not an absolutist, he can retard the culture of death. Even a man who stops 10% of abortions is preferable to one who thinks 100% of abortions are nothing less than a mandatory right-or-passage for women.

My definition of ecumenical work follows the definition offered by the late Fr. Richard John Neuhaus, a Roman Catholic priest. He said, true ecumenism starts with a frank and honest acceptance of the differences between Christian communions (“We are more united when we admit our differences, than when we pretend they don’t exist,” or something to that effect.) Thus ecumenical work does not have to try to turn RC’s into Orthodox, or Orthodox into RC’s. Usually it is to make common cause on issues that affect us (or others), such as Proposition 8 in California, etc. In fact, I would work with Mormons on issues like this since all of us have an interest in defending the Christian moral roots of culture.

Frankly, I think participation by leadership in any kind of worship outside of an Orthodox Church blurs lines that need to be kept clear. Having said that, I would speak in another church or synagogue if asked, and I have. I’ve attended services in other churches (weddings, baptisms, etc.) but only as a congregant, never taking any kind of leadership role. I don’t see this as compromise.

Look, in actual fact there is no such thing as the “true faith” or the “true Church.” It exists only as a rhetorical construct. The Church, to use the proper vocabulary, which is to say the words of scripture, is the “pillar and ground of the truth” but “truth” here is Christ. The Church (ekklesia — the “ones called out”) then, is “true” to the measure that it abides in Truth, who is Christ. Take this communion with Christ out of the Church with everything that this communion implies (including offering the Gospel to a Samaritan woman and scores like her as the reading today taught — did Jesus call her a heretic?), and all that will be left is an arid doctrinalism and emergent triumphalism. And God knows we Orthodox have more than our share of triumphalism.

On the other hand, I am clear in stating whenever I am asked that I am Orthodox Christian. By it I mean that I believe in the Gospel of Jesus Christ as it is comprehended and taught in the Orthodox Christian faith. (This is what “Tradition” is all about BTW — teaching us how to live in the Gospel.)

Here’s the thing about the Gospel. It will obliterate any structure, intellectual or otherwise, that seeks to contain it (seek to be broken on the rock, rather than have the rock break you). If one serves the Gospel however, which is to say if one seeks to conform his life Christ — if the ekklesia is indeed called out, as an existential reality — the Church is indeed in Christ and becomes his body and thus can bring light into the world. As soon as the Church claims the Gospel as its own however (as soon as we think we are saved by virtue of our “Orthodoxy” rather than Christ) then the Church ceases to be the pillar and ground of truth even if its buildings still stand, its printing presses still run…

Since when praying with leaders of all the false religions is called moral leadership? They want to tell us that all religions pray to ’same God’? Does this worry you?
It worries me very much because it shakes the foundation of my faith!

I am not interested in politics and good deeds done for the wrong reason. When should we say enough, this is the true faith the One Church and that Christ is “the Way, the Truth and the Life”, that He is the Messiah. Should we say it is enough to seek God or just ‘a god’ and be sinciere about it? Do we pray to same God? I do not think this “everybody is right” policy is a good thing. This will lead to the Una Sancta Church, under the WCC. Why did we bother to criticize the EP for it? Abp. Alexios is doing the right thing when praying for unity. Only those who would want to stay in the Orthodox faith will be to blame. They are “stubborn” and unloving. St Mark of Ephsus was wrong and he held us back for so long. Al the saints after him were wrong. Where Did I get lost, because I am certainly lost …?

Saint Seraphim of Sarov foresaw the ecumenical movment when he said that:

There will come a time when under the guise of the progress of the church and Christianity, but in order to please the desires of the world, they will be changing and twisting the dogmas and rules of the Holy Church, forgetting that their beginning is with the very Lord Jesus Christ who taught and gave instructions to his disciples – the Holy Apostles – about the constructing of the Church of Christ and about her rules, commanding them, “Go and teach all nations what I have commanded you” (Matt. 28: 19).

Heretic or schismatic, properly defined, applies only to those within the Church.

We were all One Church in the beginning!!!
Whoever separated from the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church is heretic and schismatic.

Evil enters the world through a lie, more specifically when men put their hands in service to a lie. All it takes for the evil to flourish is for good men to do nothing. Important distinction.

“False religion, heretics, schismatics” — all these terms need a more precise definition than anyone is using here. Used here it means nothing more than people who believe some things differently than the Orthodox do.

Catholics don’t use the term “schismatic or heretic” to describe Protestants. They use the term “separated brethren.” So no, they don’t consider Protestants heretics or schismatic. Neither do the Orthodox. Heretic or schismatic, properly defined, applies only to those within the Church.

The Catholics(simple believers) are good people.
I find the actions of the leaders (both John Paul II and Benedict )very difficult to understand.
With all due respect I disagree: I do not believe that
Pope John Paul II did a lot to break the back of Communism.

Since when praying with leaders of all the false religions is called moral leadership? They want to tell us that all religions pray to ‘same God’? Does this worry you?
It worries me very much because it shakes the foundation of my faith! Evil enters the world not only when good people do nothing but also when good people believe a lie.

What about the canon “One must not join in prayer with heretics or schismatics”? Are the protestants schismatics and heretics from the Catholic point of view?

As for observers not seeing any “differences” between the participants, I hardly think that that should mandate disqualification. For one thing, the casual observer is not germane to the argument (he doesn’t care one or the other) and two, even the casual observer knows that there are significant differnces between the Christian denominations. (And if he doesn’t, please see point #1 above.)

Anyway, hats off to +Jonah for participating and a “better luck next time” to the other primates.