But is it o/Orthodox to separate morals from t/Theology like that? Orthodoxy and Rome oppose certain things in Europe for fundamentally different reasons. Orthodoxy being seen as making common cause with Rome just ‘enables’ Rome’s continuing, still-escalating hubris, and misleads Westerners and Easterners into thinking that Orthodoxy and Rome agree on everything, or almost everything … especially if there are still groups supposedly Orthodox in theology, but in communion with Rome (ie, Eastern Catholics of Byzantine tradition, aka Uniates). Or else the Lord really did study in Tibet during His teens and 20s….

Long story short, how is “presenting a common moral witness” with Europe’s right theologically commendable, but doing so with the world’s center (eg, ascetic stewardship of the only planet God has given us to live on) theologically problematic? ISTM that despite any ‘coalitions’ Holy Orthodoxy enters into, the o/Orthodox basis for Orthodoxy’s witness must always be front-and-center as far as Orthodox are concerned. ‘Who Did Jesus Play Second-Fiddle To?’

As to the present address, I’m more concerned about His All Holiness’ psychological state, to say such clearly exaggerated, false things about his critics. The intended readers of this dispatch, Catholics, might not know better, and accept “NAT da Polis’ ” account at face value, ie, that “Orthodox fundamentalists” really do claim such things. But very many other potential readers still know better…. And did he really say repeatedly that interfaith dialogue is Constantinople’s creed, credo, and belief … or should we question the translation? I thought my Patriarchate had only one Creed….

—Leo Peter

Apropos, recently re-instated Archimandrite Fr. Gabriel Karambis officiated today as a ‘fill in’ at our local small town parish. Did rather well most thought. Didn’t stay for coffee though.

(It seemed best to leave the blanks there blank for a more apropos week).

Wesley,

Christ is Born!!! Glorify Him!!!

Re: I am so glad the Holy Spirit gave us + Jonah as Metropolitan.

But we still need a general unified American Church, whether or not it includes every jurisdiction.

You are right on the money…on both counts.

We need to move forward with a “coalition of the willing”, under the leadership of +JONAH….the right guy, at the right time, with the right message…

I’ve learned…don’t EVER discount the Holy Spirit – My archbishop reminds us constantly, “it’s HIS church and HE will take care of it.” We need to remember that.

In the meantime, let the Old World patriarchs play their games…they will come to naught…pope, vice pope, field marshall of the solar system…who cares.

My advice to the OCA – Lose their telephone numbers…all of them.

We all need to remember that most of the Orthodox churches on the planet spent time in the wilderness, considered schismatics by the Mother Churches…Greece, Russia, Romania, Bulgaria…almost ALL of them. So why would America be any different? It’s to be expected.

Best Regards,
Dean Calvert

Wesley, we DO need a united American Church. What I see happening however is three cclesial bodies forming: a united church that’s truly territorial and regional (i.e. real dioceses with intact diocesan boundaries) coalescing around the metropolitan of all-America and Canada, and a GOA that will never make the break from being a Byzantine Nostalgia Cult, plus some rump Old Calendar jurisdictions. At least this will be the scenario for the next 30-50 years or so.

Michael:

I’d like an answer from anyone who actually believes that unity is possible even within the various Christian traditions–on what foundation is this unity to be achieved? Do we just forget all of the theological, soteriologcial, anthropological and eccesisological differences, because, after all, they are mere anachronisms of a less evolved, less educated generations are they not?

What Christ? What peace? What unity? Tell me!

I believe it would be reasonable to solve the differences between the RCC and the Orthodox Church first. There are plenty of things that need to be worked out.

Fr. Arsenie Papacioc, 2005: On the sects and the Catholic Church.

I have written about this, an entire book entitled “Solely the Orthodoxy” They are anathematized, that’s the way it is. Because if you alter a sliver of anything I have said, says the Savior let it be Anathema!
You can no longer be saved. In every circumstance we must preserve all that the Ecumenical Councils have decided, because it wasn’t done either by you or me!
It was done through Councils that lasted hundreds of days, abounding with signs and miracles, with the Holy Spirit! This is how the truth was established at the Seven Ecumenical Councils (EC) !
The first was in AD 325 and the last in AD 787! They decided in all things in unity.
The Catholics split in 1054; the Synods were complete by then!
At the Sixth EC Pope Martin was a martyr! Why do they betray him now? Why did they depart? And from here everything started! Luther began the protestant movement, the Anglicans, and so on… We do not guarantee them salvation, we cannot!
The Holy Fathers, too, the entire ECs consider that their teachings are heresies! We simply cannot consider anathematized heresy as salvific.

What about Ecumenism?
Well of course, I am against it. This is what I was talking about. Against it as in a life and death struggle! What Ecumenism? What do you want to reconcile now, coming with arrogance and approaching me? The Pope came to Romania not to chat over a cup of coffee; not to observe the Christian movement and to rejoice over the fullness of the churches during feast days. He came to serve a liturgy to prove something! He thought he would be a winner!

What did he do with the Uniates? What did he do when he realized that he could in no way conquer them because they initially worshiped as Orthodox? “Worship as you please but as regards to administration you must belong to us.” And look at them now: they are more Catholic than the Catholics.
And this is what they want now, to conquer, hegemony. They want to dominate! And I tell you, may our good Lord forgive me, but woe are they! Look what they did recently in Rome [at the burial of Pope John Paul II]: it was a nefarious demonstration with hidden motives. Do you believe that the Pope was just a Pope? He had various roles, all kinds of debts, God knows them, God knows them all …

Brothers, the smallest departure is a great fall! There is so much order and purity in Heaven that we will certainly be accepted with great honors, surely, but without departure from the Truth … People are flabbergasted by the Catholic flamboyance and order, but all these is false. False! A show! A sickening show that suits their goals.

And only to conquer! However, they have seriously hurt themselves; it is a self-destructive process because people are not that foolish!

What the mod demands is irrelevant [beatification of the late pope]; what matters is the truth that comes out of the crowds! And the truth is only represented in illumined people because God does not allow Himself to be duped, my beloved! It does no work for me to say one thing and you another, to add and distort and so on … because these are transgressions against dogma! Hear what they say: the Pope is the Vicar of God! The vicar does not exist unless the master is dead! We have a living Master, Christ! Christ is alive; why do I need a vicar? “For lo, I am with you until the end of time” We live through faith, not eyesight! It was like this 1054 years, even though the patriarch at Rome was “primus inter pares”, or first among equals.

He was the first consulted. But with a council, it is not one’s own opinion that holds sway; rather, what the entire council decides matters, what all the members hold to be true! The apostles appeared immediately at the Dormition of the Theotokos, brought together on the clouds of the sky. They held a council in Jerusalem, but Peter was not president! Decisions were made in a synodal way, nothing was decreed from on high. And such a thing cannot be when truth is at stake; God speaks through the majority!

ECs were established, with the first being in AD 325 the most important one where the Creed was revealed. “And the Holy Spirit” at the Second Council: “And proceeds from the Father”. While the Catholics added that it also proceeds from the Soon! when Christ, Himself, says you make an addition to say that it also proceeds from the Son?

The Primacy and Infallibility of the Pope.
Truly, it has been said that three grave errors have been committed since the creation of the world: the fall of Adam, the betrayal of Christ by Judas, and Papal Infallibility! It is terrible! And then the Immaculate Conception, that the Mother of God was born without sin! A great error!
We know who the Theotokos is. It is mind boggling! But to compare her to God you make her identical to Him?
She is, still, His servant. “All nations shall call me blessed” that’s another thing. But she was born with the original sin inherited from Adam. And through the intercession of the Holy Spirit at birth, the sin was lifted. We escape from its bounds at Holy Baptism. Also, they serve the liturgy with unleavened bread, azimes. The word is “artos” – bread, not “azimos”! The new covenant of Christ came with whole bread; because truth is whole, leavened, not unleavened bread. And despite using leavened bread for 1054 years, they changed.

Purgatory. They no longer have the practice of the commemoration of the departed because they no longer have the Proskomede. In other words, the most important part from the beginning which the priest does in silence: he commemorates the names; he does many things which I have no time to explain now. He commemorates the living and he dead with special Prosfora. Toward the end of the Divine Liturgy when bread and wine become the body and the blood of Christ the discus and the rest are placed in the blood of Christ: “Lord, wash away the sins of those named here!”.

Only God can forgive sins. Later they added Indulgences so that they could finish building St. Peter’s basilica in Rome, thinking that this is a heavenly business transaction. Begone with your interpretation of “heaven” as commerce! What terrible errors! One of the greatest errors is believing that “the end justifies the means”. In other words I kill you and I am justified because the Church says so. It matters little that I kill you if the church supports me.

And you realize of course that there are many hard-headed people without sensibility who would kill because they are justified by this notion. Like in the Judaic Talmud: it says that if you see a Christian on the edge of a precipe, push him over. And this is considered a church precept: one thinks he is doing well believing that he is bringing glory to God’s name! This is what the Catholic are doing these days. After they introduced: the end justifies the means.
While carrying warfare against you he is allowed to bring you any type of harm because of what he is trying to accomplish, since again. the end justifies the means. This cannot be; it is not the Truth. It is a big tactical mistake in the battle about which God knows everything. I have said this before: God tolerates and tolerates before He strikes; this is what happens, we shall see! My God forgive me, but I tell you as a priest and I consider myself an ordinary but honest priest, not one who is greatly advanced that woe are they! I tell you …It does not work like that, priesthood must be pure Mister Pope; priesthood must be honest!

After all the above are solved, they can work on the unity with other Christian traditions.

I don’t know about the dismissal, but George, if you are right, it would be cynicism of the worst order.

I am so glad the Holy Spirit gave us + Jonah as Metropolitan.

But we still need a general unified American Church, whether or not it includes every jurisdiction.

Nick: fantastic poem.

It says it all. Fr Hans: agreed. Not only has the EP derailed authentic Christian unity in America, but even if one doesn’t really care about that, one can see the absolute lethargy that has taken over the GOA. One only needs to look at the poor attendence each biennium at the various Clergy-Laity Congresses. The last one in July was the worst-attended ever. What’s the point?

The irony is that in order to shore up the ethnic base and drive out the Americanists, the ethnicists have lost as well as those who were driven by the Christian spirit of Ligonier.

I guess it’s all going to come to naught anyway. Now that the Holy Synod of the OCA announced that the autocephaly of the local, American Church is not up for grabs, I suspect we’ll see less and less enthusiasm among the money men of the GOA for hosting future Episcopal Assemblies.

And since it seems that the EAs were nothing but ruses to derail authentic unity and autocephaly, that’s a good thing.

I will get pounded for saying it now, but in two years we are going to start hearing prominent people say this publically and in three years it will be the accepted wisdom:

The firing of Abp. Iakovos and the takeover of the American Greek Orthodox Church by Constantinople was a catastrophe of the first order. It will take an entire generation to reverse it, if it is even reversible.

(Harry, you were right.)

Consider the following article:
AWAY IN A MANGER
http://www.nationalreview.com/articles/255861/away-manger-paul-marshall

Nick,

“What this all boils down to is, in the world of Ravenna, there are only two protoi at the universal level, one of the East and the other of the West, with Rome as the protos and the Phanar as the vice-protos. This duality of structure, far from reflecting or manifesting a Trinitarian ethos, is missing the Third Person.”

The line in italics is priceless.

Like your style.

Scott

Let me get this straight: A spokesman for the Phanar is criticizing others for excessive nationalism? If that’s not the pot calling the kettle black I don’t know what is. Can they even hear themselves anymore?