“The mistake is to imagine that the American Orthodox Church is so strong that it can exist without traditional ethnic Orthodox piety and customs, on the one hand, or without American culture on the other.”

“What needs to change is our willingness to see the benefits of the Church’s American character. We must find the resources for unity not simply in our past as Greeks or Russians but also in the genius of the American experiment.”

Perhaps I assumed I knew what Fr. Gregory was talking about from past exchanges. Looking above to his article, I too really am not sure what he’s talking about in American culture that he thinks is good or a basis to work with.

I simply don’t know what he means by stating we don’t have to become American but are already American. This is meaningless unless you define what it means to be American. In the first quote above, I do not know what he means by “American culture”. To me, there is very little culture left in America. But he may have something specific, concrete in mind.

Also, I find the reference to “traditional ethnic Orthodox piety and customs” to be a canard of sorts. I have no objection to ethnically distinctive practices. But there is a body of traditional Orthodox practice that is not ethnic specific. There is nothing, for example, ethnic specific about crossing oneself after each of the petitions in the litany. There is nothing ethnically specific about crossing with bows at the Trisagion. These customs may have been forgotten in some ethnic quarters but they are universal. As is women’s headcovering, as is open space in church for worship and to allow for bowing and prostration. These things are not Greek or Arab or Russian. They are Orthodox. Also, conversely, cluttering the place up with pews, women ignoring St. Paul’s injuction, etc. are not “American” or “American culture”, they are just unorthodox. I think it is important to be patient with those who have modernist tendencies but not to let modernism entrench itself any further than it has already.

I also don’t know what he means by “American character” in the second quote above. I do tend to read modernistic tendencies in American Orthodoxy into these types of statements. Broad meaningless statements, much like those used by political liberals, are typical of modernist Orthodox – – statements so meaningless and broad they could justify anything. “You’re talking about externals and externals aren’t important.” I’ve heard that one a number of times. What it really means is that the speaker is concerned with externals but feels those externals you are concerned with are too old fashioned or no longer necessary. They’re not interested in getting rid of the iconostasis or vestiments, just the externals they don’t like.

As far as the “genius of the American experiment”, the phrase is overused and no longer appropriate. It may be that there was some genius at work in the original organization of our constitutional republic at its founding. The seeds of destruction were also there though, as De Tocqueville pointed out. Moreover, as time passed on, the states and federal government lost whatever commitment they had to Christian morality.

The result is what is officially, at the level of state and federal government, a post-Christian government generally modestly hostile toward religion and rejecting traditional morality. That is not “genius”. It is foolishness institutionalized.

Scott, to the extent that we each are inseparable from our culture, Fr. Gregory is correct. Plus you have to love the people in order to evangelize.

However, I wish Fr. Gregory would be more precise in what he finds valuable in western Christianity. As nearly as I can work out, it is natural law. Since he agrees with me that all too often the natural law approach ends in deism or some other dualistic approach to God (heresy) I come away still wondering.

Although I would get a lot of arguments on this, the foundation of our politics could be seen as a continuation of English Civil War with its inherent anti-monarchical, iconoclastic bent.

Certainly Americans tend to be a-historical and anti-traditional.

The Church seems to have the best fit with the most radical in our society, those most unhappy with the way things are and how they got there, but are still searching for a transcendent truth. Despite that we seem intent (as a whole) on seeking the approval of the elites, i.e., those farthest into the secular, nihilisitic void.

Rather than seeking to make friends with such we should be strongly prophetic and make friends with the disaffected, the needy and those who are seeking the truth. In otherwords we are doing it backwards.

“So, God still thought even if Rome was the way it was, the church was to be there.”

Amen. Orthodoxy should transform the culture though, not meet it half way, which is what I took to be the gist of Fr. Gregory’s article.

The problem is the “big T tradition” vs. “little t tradition” mentality. First of all it is arbitrary picking and choosing based on no firm criteria or historical precedent within Orthodoxy. Apart from language, food, etc., there’s no good reason to adopt “American”/Protestant/Catholic/secular-liberal practices in the Church. It just waters down the faith, results in a corruption of the Church culture and is a source of division between those who wish to continue traditional practices and those who, for example, want altar girls, etc. It recognizes this decadent culture as a valid normative source to be incorporated into Orthodox practice. It results in the laity acquiring the same attitudes toward morality and family life as the surrounding culture. It is arrogant and misguided in that it looks at the Church from the perspective of salesmanship without respect to the quality or integrity of the thing being sold.

Today Russia and Greece have high abortion rates. Up through the nineteenth century, Orthodox culture was very pro family. Children were a source of wealth and pride. There were abortions, I’m sure. But there was a tremendous stigma attached, as well as legal sanctions, and the rates I’m sure were much lower than now. Now the emphasis is on individual autonomy and equality – – which result in high abortion rates, high rates of divorce, etc. An evil worldview results in evil consequences.

What about Orthodox culture? Do you know what Russian and Greek culture were like before their respective Christianizations? Such is the present state of America and Western Europe. Before the twentieth century, if you were to go to most any Orthodox country, you would have seen much the same basic pattern of worship and morality. You could go into a church in Moscow or Petersburg and you would see no pews, women with their heads covered, etc. you would not hear a word about civil unions or toleration of abortion. Same in Greece. Same in Romania. Etc. You would hear the Gospel proclaimed and a fairly austere way of living proclaimed (at least in comparison to modern America).

It bears repeating ad nauseum until it sinks in: There is nothing unique about the souls of Americans or Western Europeans as opposed to all others on earth from time immemorial. There is nothing normatively valid about modern Western culture. Americans and Western Europeans are just as needful of traditional Orthodoxy, in theology and practice, as all other cultures. Nothing about American democracy or (bad) habits learned from Protestants, Catholics or secular liberals should change or influence this.

“In the coming weeks and months, the Orthodox bishops in American will gather to start the long process of consolidating administratively the American Orthodox Church.”

This is not true. All we are seeing is SCOBA II.

“While it is not always an easy relationship, we would be foolish to assume that the Church can, or even should, try to sustain her ministry and life in America apart from, or worse hostile to, American culture.”

American culture is high rates of abortion, destruction of the family, exhibitionism, promiscuity, feminism, etc. If we are not hostile to American culture, we are not Christians.

“We must find the resources for unity not simply in our past as Greeks or Russians but also in the genius of the American experiment.”

There is no genius in the “American experiment”. Witness its results.

If Orthodoxy in America cannot survive without tribalism or being Americanized in its practices and morality, it is already largely dead and not worth saving.

Why not just commit to the greatest common denominator of practice in the various Orthodox Churches prior to the 20th century (a/k/a the Age of Apostasy)?

What is actually more promising is the idea that a minimizing of ethnicity and a rejection of the norms of the sick culture might produce a smaller, more pious and more committed Orthodox Church here composed of ethnic Orthodox and converts alike, whose commitment is to the Gospel. Not American culture. Not the particular culture of their ancestors’ country.

We either approach the Church as a living icon of the Incarnate Lord or we approach it as a dead idol.

Our choice