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Comments on: Another one? Greco-triumphalism trumps the moral tradition — again https://www.aoiusa.org/another-one-ethnicity-trumps-the-moral-tradition-again/ A Research and Educational Organization that engages the cultural issues of the day within the Orthodox Christian Tradition Thu, 11 Mar 2010 19:38:43 +0000 hourly 1 https://wordpress.org/?v=6.3.3 By: Culture is at Risk of Becoming Anti-Culture without the Church | OrthodoxNet.com Blog https://www.aoiusa.org/another-one-ethnicity-trumps-the-moral-tradition-again/#comment-9745 Thu, 11 Mar 2010 19:38:43 +0000 https://www.aoiusa.org/?p=6047#comment-9745 […] this to the impoverished thinking on human value coming out of Constantinople that we have been discussing on this blog the last few days. The reason Constantinople’s compromise with the dominant culture concerning […]

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By: cynthia curran https://www.aoiusa.org/another-one-ethnicity-trumps-the-moral-tradition-again/#comment-9679 Wed, 10 Mar 2010 00:22:58 +0000 https://www.aoiusa.org/?p=6047#comment-9679 The quotes on the fathers was good but some might point out that Tertullian ended up becoming a montanists in his old age. But that doesn’t disqualify him on the subject.

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By: cynthia curran https://www.aoiusa.org/another-one-ethnicity-trumps-the-moral-tradition-again/#comment-9678 Wed, 10 Mar 2010 00:20:22 +0000 https://www.aoiusa.org/?p=6047#comment-9678 Well, I would rather even vote for a mormon than a liberial orthodox person. Terry Matting was on a non-orthodox talk show discussing that among 20-29 year olds that young Roman Catholics are even more liberal than Youths rise in mainline protestant backgrounds. I bet this is the same among Orthodox youth tend to be more liberal also.

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By: cynthia curran https://www.aoiusa.org/another-one-ethnicity-trumps-the-moral-tradition-again/#comment-9676 Wed, 10 Mar 2010 00:13:13 +0000 https://www.aoiusa.org/?p=6047#comment-9676 Well, according to Bartholomew website he knows both Greek and Latin. So, I’m sure he is aware of the church fathers writings in both the east and west on the subject. He is also aware of the Justinian Code on the subject as well as the laws passed under Basil the first and Leo the wise, or other medieval Byzantine law codes.

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By: George Michalopulos https://www.aoiusa.org/another-one-ethnicity-trumps-the-moral-tradition-again/#comment-9675 Wed, 10 Mar 2010 00:11:05 +0000 https://www.aoiusa.org/?p=6047#comment-9675 In reply to Andrew.

Andrew, I’ve heard of only one man who was made an archon because of his service to the church. He’s not by any stretch of the imagination wealthy but a pious man nonetheless. (I truly enjoyed his company for the little time that I spent with him.) I’d rather not give his name out but he’s the father of a bishop. But in my experience, he’s the exception that proves the rule. Most of the archons that I know of are big givers and/or famous names.

To show you how corrupt the problem is, a GOA priest told me that candidates for archon are submitted by the parish priest. That sounds about right, however when I heard that one wealthy layman in particular became an archon (whom I happen to like btw), I asked this priest about it. He didn’t know about it. It looks like the man in question went straight to the top (either the local Met or NYC, I don’t know). What this tells me is that in too many Orthodox (certainly not just the GOA) circles, things are made up as they go along.

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By: Chris Banescu https://www.aoiusa.org/another-one-ethnicity-trumps-the-moral-tradition-again/#comment-9674 Wed, 10 Mar 2010 00:06:44 +0000 https://www.aoiusa.org/?p=6047#comment-9674 In reply to Andrew.

Andrew,

I believe you pretty much nailed it.
http://news.pseka.net/index.php?module=article&id=9777

Other distinguished Orthodox Christians include: U.S. Senator Olympia Snowe; numerous members of the U.S. House of Representatives; Chief Washington Correspondent for ABC News George Stephanopoulos; recent U.S. Ambassador to the UN, Director of National Intelligence and Deputy Secretary of State John Negroponte; former U.S. Senator Paul Sarbanes; and former Governor and Presidential nominee Michael Dukakis.

Notice some of the common characteristics running through many (not all) of these award recipients?
– Greek = check
– Social Liberal = check
– Rich = check
– Powerful = check
– Politically connected = check

http://news.pseka.net/index.php?module=article&id=9777

Feb. 19, 2009 – The highest honor a layperson can receive from the Greek Orthodox Church of America, the prestigious Medal of St. Paul, was bestowed on Eleni Tsakopoulos-Kounalakis, church/community leader, philanthropist and President of AKT Development. It was presented in Washington, D.C. by His Eminence Archbishop Demetrios, Primate of the Greek Orthodox Church in America and Exarch of the Ecumenical Patriarchate, who recently participated in President Barack Obama’s Inaugural National Prayer Service. The Archbishop also leads America’s Hellenic community, including at its nearly quarter-of-a-century-old annual White House meeting with Presidents of the United States.

Eleni Tsakopoulos-Kounalakis is one of the few among many distinguished Greek Orthodox Christians in America to have her extraordinary service recognized with this highest honor.

Did a little research and found this out about the Tsakopoulos family:
http://www.sacmag.com/media/Sacramento-Magazine/June-2005/Keeping-It-In-The-Family/

During the past 30 years, the Tsakopoulos family has contributed millions of dollars to, among others, the Greek Orthodox Church, St. Hope Academy, Sacramento Country Day School, the Crocker Art Museum, Jesuit High School, the Roseville Arts Center, the Sacramento Tree Foundation and UC Davis M.I.N.D. Institute for the study of neurological disorders. And though his name often winds up on the monumental signage or commemorative plaque of buildings and campuses, his son Kyriakos says Tsakopoulos is surprisingly shy about the accolades. (“Sometimes, things get named for my father by others, out of respect,” he told us in a 2003 interview.)

As with any powerful family, Tsakopoulos family members are often embroiled in controversy. Although they are ardent, pro-environment Democrats, their building and development activities occasionally put them at odds with segments of that very community. Students of history and founders of the Western Policy Center in Sacramento and Washington, D.C., they’re sometimes characterized by their critics as latter-day Medicis, the money-mad merchants who pretty much ran Italy for three centuries.

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By: Andrew https://www.aoiusa.org/another-one-ethnicity-trumps-the-moral-tradition-again/#comment-9673 Tue, 09 Mar 2010 23:40:55 +0000 https://www.aoiusa.org/?p=6047#comment-9673 In reply to Isa Almisry.

Isa, Harry Markopoulos is a wonderful example. I was thinking of buying his book. However, I have to ask has anyone ever been made an Archon because of their character, virtue, or service to the Church alone?

It looks like the awarding of Archon is always connected to the size of ones wallet and the ability to write checks to the EP.

Am I right or are their people out there who received the honor of Archon solely based on character and service alone?

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By: Isa Almisry https://www.aoiusa.org/another-one-ethnicity-trumps-the-moral-tradition-again/#comment-9672 Tue, 09 Mar 2010 22:45:11 +0000 https://www.aoiusa.org/?p=6047#comment-9672 In reply to Scott Pennington.

“I’m not sure we can chalk this up to phyletism. If we were talking about a Romanian Church honoring a Romanian or a Russian Church honoring a Russian, we wouldn’t look at it with outrage.”

Do we see that? The late Patriarch Teoctist single handedly stopped the liberalization of divorce in Romania and led opposition to the new family values of the EU: homosexuality, etc. And Patriarch Alexei and Met. Hilarion weren’t remembered for sweet talking the EU parliament.

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By: Isa Almisry https://www.aoiusa.org/another-one-ethnicity-trumps-the-moral-tradition-again/#comment-9670 Tue, 09 Mar 2010 22:37:00 +0000 https://www.aoiusa.org/?p=6047#comment-9670 In reply to Andrew.

I’d like to know if they plan on making Harry Markopolos an archon:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harry_Markopolos
http://www.helleniccomserve.com/harrymarkopolos.html

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By: Chrys https://www.aoiusa.org/another-one-ethnicity-trumps-the-moral-tradition-again/#comment-9669 Tue, 09 Mar 2010 22:35:34 +0000 https://www.aoiusa.org/?p=6047#comment-9669 In reply to George Michalopulos.

The key concern is the priorities that may be at work here. While unity would be impossible if it required perfect agreement, we have it on good authority that you can’t be yoked with another if you are going in two basically different directions.

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By: Fr. Johannes Jacobse https://www.aoiusa.org/another-one-ethnicity-trumps-the-moral-tradition-again/#comment-9668 Tue, 09 Mar 2010 22:22:26 +0000 https://www.aoiusa.org/?p=6047#comment-9668 In reply to Michael Bauman.

From another direction: We are in agreement on moral theology and praxis. The problem here is not disagreement, but Constantinople’s compromise with the dominant culture. Maybe this disqualifies them from leadership, despite their claims to the contrary.

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By: Michael Bauman https://www.aoiusa.org/another-one-ethnicity-trumps-the-moral-tradition-again/#comment-9667 Tue, 09 Mar 2010 21:54:02 +0000 https://www.aoiusa.org/?p=6047#comment-9667 In reply to George Michalopulos.

Similiar to unity with Rome, it can only occur when we are in agreement on matters theological and on the praxis.

The vast disparity on pastoral matters as well as stances on various social issues is not heartening for real unity.

The first jurisdiction to establish a real, functioning Holy Synod that is responsive to the clergy and laity as well as having an missionary spirit founded in the Tradition will attract those who are serious. Frankly, I see NO candidates right now. Real obedience is required.

It will take at least two more generations of real concentrated effort in terms of living the faith from a significant number of the laity before any dent will be made. We have to want to live in a genuine Orthodox manner rather than in Rome-lite or Protestanized orthodoxy or old-world centered ethnicism.

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By: George Michalopulos https://www.aoiusa.org/another-one-ethnicity-trumps-the-moral-tradition-again/#comment-9666 Tue, 09 Mar 2010 21:26:59 +0000 https://www.aoiusa.org/?p=6047#comment-9666 In reply to Fr. Peter Dubinin.

Fr, you said it best. I’ve been having second thoughts about unity as well. Forgive me for saying this, but I don’t know how we can be united administratively if we don’t even see eye-to-eye on the important matters. As for the Episcopal Assembly, I have operated under the fear that it would be nothing more than another SCOBA, feckless and irrelevant. That might be the best possible outcome if the other jurisdictions are going to keep on playing footsie with the worldly set.

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By: Michael Bauman https://www.aoiusa.org/another-one-ethnicity-trumps-the-moral-tradition-again/#comment-9660 Tue, 09 Mar 2010 18:33:47 +0000 https://www.aoiusa.org/?p=6047#comment-9660 In reply to Chrys.

Chrys, I’m afraid they don’t see that the pol’s positions are at odds with the Church. One of the real problems with the legacy of dhimmintude is that under dhimmintude, power and survival become the sole criteria rather than witness and faithfulness. Unlike the blatant type of persecution, dhimmi folk are slow boiled like the proverbial frog–life is slowly drained from them. In the EP’s case it has been going on for over 500 years, is still going on. Even by Orthodox time, that’s long.

Yet each person, lay, clergy or bishop has the new and fresh choice of the Gospel over the way of the world.

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By: Chrys https://www.aoiusa.org/another-one-ethnicity-trumps-the-moral-tradition-again/#comment-9658 Tue, 09 Mar 2010 18:19:43 +0000 https://www.aoiusa.org/?p=6047#comment-9658 In reply to Fr. Peter Dubinin.

There is always a temptation for all of us to elevate “us” and “ours” over “God” and “His.” When we do this individually, we recognize it for the sin (idolatry) that is – or we should. As I noted before, I am struck by how small and insignificant a group must feel in order to want to celebrate someone whose positions are so fundamentally at odds with the Church. (Of course, this might be better than the alternative: that they simply don’t see that his positions are at odds with the Church. This, however, I can’t really imagine.)

The Church must be about the Gospel – in season or out. There have been many times (even in recent history) when this imposed a high political price, but we honor those who paid it. There is no alternative: the moment that the cross becomes inconvenient is the moment we cease to be Christian. My hope is that this is a moment of careless, self-indulgent blindness. The alternative explanations would seem to be much more damning.

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