Comments on: An Insider’s View of the Collapse of the PCUSA

By: J. Bonnage

J. Bonnage — Sat, 21 May 2011 04:49:04 +0000

It’s the theological ethics that is at the root of the conundrum. ‘Deontological’ ethics (the RULES) says certain things are either right or wrong, black or white. ‘Teleological’ ethics says determine the goal, and then how you get there, and choose the steps to the best of your ability. So, the Methodists with their “Open Hearts, Open Doors, Open Minds” profession have clearly chosen the latter approach to bringing people to Christ. And other Protestant denominations are following a similar pattern. Those in the former group make it clear that you ‘toe the line’ (although what that line is, is up for debate).

Christ was pretty clear about how to treat people, forgiveness and love, etc. The baptized community has developed a lot of frosting for the cake over two millenia, and sometimes I think even the most bible-based folks let the acculturation influence their determinations.

Ethnic groups, like the Orthodox and some ethnic Roman Catholic communities, are more ‘flexible’ since the possible-sinner is seen as family and given more leeway to be ‘loose’ and outside the strictures — but we just don’t talk about it. American Protestantism doesn’t have this luxury because of its history as doctrine-based and not ethno-familial.

And, for the record, Pope Leo XIII declared Anglican orders “null and totally void” since, from the time of Cromwell, the ordination purpose was to ordain ‘ministers’ and not ‘priests’. So the Episcopals have to swim the Tiber along with any other non-Catholic Western Christians.

By: M Commini

M Commini — Wed, 18 May 2011 16:44:59 +0000

In reply to George Michalopulos. I doubt that this will lead to many, if any at all, Presbyterians joining the RCC (or Orthodoxy for that matter), and certainly not entire parishes. It's not like with the tEC where you have a denomination that makes claim to Apostolic Succession and a large exterior body that claims communion with a specific bishop (Canterbury) to be necessary for catholicity. The PCUSA is the largest Presbyterian denomination in the United States, but it is not the only Presbyterian denomination in the US. I'd expect that the more conservative members of the PCUSA will end up jumping over to the PCA.

By: George Michalopulos

George Michalopulos — Wed, 18 May 2011 13:04:01 +0000

In reply to George Patsourakos. I see your point, George. The only quibble might be that I don't think that the RCC considers the ordinations of the Calvinists to be valid. Also they have no liturgy per se. Thus they may have to just bite the bullet and swim the Tiber. I suppose some could enter the Anglican vicariate of the RCC. It's all sad if you ask me because the damage is entirely self-inflicted.

By: George Patsourakos

George Patsourakos — Wed, 18 May 2011 01:54:00 +0000

It is a sad time for most Presbyterian Church members in the U. S. — and for Christians in general — now that the Presbyterian Church has agreed to ordain homosexuals and lesbians as ministers. I am sure that this decision will result in the loss of many thousands of members of the Presbyterian Church, just as similar liberal decisions recently resulted in the loss of many thousands of Anglican Church members.

In fact, it would not surprise me one iota if Pope Benedict XVI attracted a plethora of Presbyterian Church members by making it easier for them to convert to Catholicism — just as he did for the members of the Anglican Church.