Allow me to explain: although he has slain the fantastical dragon of the exaggerated number of “1.5 million adherents” (which the GOA still has not done yet if The Orthodox Observer is still to be believed, the much more modest number of 565,000 is still just as unrealiable. The previous number of 1.5million meant that there were 2700+ adherents per church (1.5million/549 parishes). At 565,000/549, that would put us down to 1029 adherents per parish. Again, does anybody really believe this to be the case?

The two relevant questions were to ask 1) how many people were associated with the parish and 2) how many attended on a typical Sunday. In my own parish, those numbers are roughly 240 and 85. Does that mean I have 155 “non-attenders”? No, because those 85 who are there are not always there, and the 155 who are absent aren’t always absent. Some people come every Sunday. Some come a few times a month. Some come only once a month. Some come only a few times a year.

The way I keep my records, if we don’t hear from someone in some way for more than a year, they are dropped from the official membership rolls (though we do try to contact them to see if they will come back). As such, it is likely that nearly all those 155 will attend at least once during the year. 85 is not my “real” membership, and it would be wrong to characterize those 155 who aren’t here on a typical Sunday as non-members just because they aren’t there every single Sunday.

I know that not all parishes keep count exactly the way we do, but I also know that just because only 23% of GOA members are in church on a typical Sunday does not mean that the other 77% never come. “Non-attending” is not the right term for these people, since some of those 77% will be there when some of those 23% are not. Church membership is not dividable into “always there” and “never there.”

Harry, point taken. Your example is still not off the mark by much with regards to mine. Aunt Mabel’s apple pie is something which helps solidify fellowship, hence the ethnic Serbs/etc. driving 10 miles out of the way by-passing the closer Lebanese/etc. parish. But this same “something” is what the growing number of GOA parishioners are finding at the monastic churches. (Liturgy in Greek, no fund-raising appeals, people fellowshipping after Liturgy not talking about what a scoundrel the Sr Warden is, etc.)

Dean, thanks. Yes I agree plainly what’s valued most appears to be parish life. Many of its aspects of importance appear to be valued for dubious reasons and inconsistently… but plainly to the extent there is a ‘king of the value hill’, that’s it.

I always thought people were in an insignificant minority who said ‘if the priest gets more expenseive we’ll just stop paying Chicago and if they don’t send us another priest we’ll be better off, maybe one will come a few times per year.’ Now I see that their number might be closer to a majority in the GOA!!

The difference I sense in the scenario you mention George is: Aunt Mable’s special fellowship hour dessert. People go to the ‘ethnic’ church driving past the other Orthodox churches because their family and the people they grew up with go there. It isn’t about the priest or the ethnicity per se, it is about the people. People who are ‘fresh’ to a town with no family ties to this or that parish I hope choose the closest one.

Harry, I wasn’t trying to pass a judgment as much as make an observation. Nature abhors a vacuum and for whatever reason, the parishes, ruled as they are by priests who are fearful of their bishops and a worldly elite, have been dropping the ball.

Personally, I think that it’s sad state of affairs when laymen feel they have to drive 4 or more hours to go to a monastic church for services. But isn’t that what we’ve been doing afte a fashion because of our divisions? How many ethnic Serbs who live 2 mi from a Lebanese parish drive all the way across town to attend the Serbian parish? What’s the difference except mileage at that point?

George, Monasteries whose occupants do not work as they do in Athos, monasteries who in fact plainly or by innuendo or implication or hints of psychological suggestion need or seek to take from ‘parishioners’ to survive can’t rightly call themselves ‘Athonite’ no matter the extent to which their service patterns follow this or that monastery in Athos.

Here new on the list of

‘fat monk’ and ‘fat monk-priest’ and ‘fat monk-bishop’

and

‘rich monk’ and ‘rich monk-priest’ and ‘rich monk-bishop’

we can add

‘monastery parishioner’ — one who drives further to the monastery than several nearby parishes, who relies on the often not present abbott to protect the parishioner children and other vulnerable from the often profound temptations besetting the monks to ‘retreated’ to a monastery for good reasons to begin with. L I A B I L I Y R U S.

I just mentioned the question of Athos, because someone brought up brand name, and someone questioned it.

The one I visited was founded by Elder Ephraim, but besides a picture of him among the pictures of the EP, Abp Demetrios etc. and some mention in the literature on the monastery, nothing much was made of that. I say that because he is often accused of leading a cult. If he is, at that monastery he is doing a poor job of maintaining the cult of personality there, which is as it should be. The monastery itself is in the middle of nowhere, and a small chapel, but the buildings and grounds are attractive and well kept, the bookstore has a fairly sizeable selectin in Greek and English, and the assortment of people seem to be varied.

I met the elder one time, and I have to say he has a presence about him. The people surrounding him and those seeing him at that point were VERY Greek, but just in the sense in that was there background and language. I was by no means made to feel an outsider. They were humble about their Hellenism, and had no arrogance about it at all.

George I will try to post it.

Dean, where can we access the power point presentation you’re talking about?

Harry, as I admitted, my experience is “rather limited” (i.e. to only one monastery.

But this is what I saw and continue to see: entire families going there for servies and confessions. Yes, only the men can stay overnite but I’m talking mainly about families taking day trips and spending the entire day there.

Whether this is healthy or not is beside the point. I’ll grant you that I’ve overheard iffy things second and third hand, but let’s be honest, you and I have actually seen goofy things at some of our parishes. So it may be a wash in the final analysis.

Isa, by “Athonite monasteries” I meant the ones set up by Elder Ephraim here in America, not Athos itself. (I’ve never been so I can’t speak to it.)

What struck me about Holy Archangels was the volume of people there on Tues or any mid-week day. Anywhere from five to a dozen. Just milling about, socializing, confessing to the abbott, helping out with chores, etc. I’m talking families too, children running about (it’s over 140 acres).

Hi Harry,

One of the things that got me started on this was listening to the AFR interview of Alexei Krindatch (see http://ancientfaith.com/podcasts/illuminedheart).

In that interview, he explains his methodology – which appears to have been an effort to contact every single church. Right or wrong, I’m sure that’s the first time that’s ever happened..and it intrigued me.

In the process, Alexei admitted the shortcomings inherent in the 2000 surveys – which were not done this way.

You know how i like data…so when i heard the interview, I thought, “This guy may have just come up with something worth taking a look at,” and plowed into the data.

By the way, be sure to look at the data along with the Powerpoint presentation which is also available at the orthodoxreality website. The PPT data was primarily done thru interviews at GOA churches..and he comes up with some dousies….67% of Greeks believe you can be a good Orthodox Christian and not go to church! The data shows (100-22% attendees = 78%) the number is even higher.

It also shows, however, that the Eucharist is what people really believe in..that’s it’ Anyway, take a look…it’s worth the time.

Best Regards,
dean

I’ve been a couple times to the Athonite Monastery in IL for DL. The ordinary Sundays there were several dozen people from all around and different backgrounds. About half identified themselves as regular attendess, who attended as families. I met two Polish Orthodox families and a Mexican American one, along with a couple Russians and Carpatho-Russians. Btw one of the monks is a Palestinian Arab.

The DL for their feast day was packed:they rent a tent and have it outside.

I haven’t been to Athos, so I can’t make the comparison.

Harry,

besides my challenge to go into any GOA parish and do an estimate, I’d ask my correspondents to count not just those in the pews, but the dozen or so men milling about in the Narthex, the 50+ children in the Sunday School, and how many are just wandering about in the offices/adminstrative hall/parish hall? Add all these subsets in as well and you might get 300.