I agree Scott.

All sorts of people rail — they look for the hero, the one who can articulate a path to a good future. Only someone who has lived there who really ‘gets’ what’s possible and how people think, and at the same time sees what changes will help can do that.

Macedonia,

Actually, part of what it means is, “We respect your quaint little traditional takes on morality and culture but we need you to sanitize your cultural and religious sensibilities in favor of our progressive, secular, feminist values if you want to trade with us.”

That’s the problem with being in the EU, “What does it profit a man to gain the whole world and yet to lose his soul?”

James,

You presuppose there is something that can be done in a democratic government to make the government adopt Christian morality as public policy. I don’t believe that’s possible.

Politics aside, the thing to do is to commit to orthopraxis, to making a traditionalist Orthodox subculture. We all work in the world, I’m not advocating separating like the Amish. But creating a traditionalist subculture would make a clear distinction between traditional, valid Orthodoxy and the Americanist religion of which American Catholicism and modernist Orthodoxy are little more than sub-sects. We interact with non-Orthodox at work, in charitable venues and, perhaps, in non-denominational Christian cultural events where a genuine Orthodox presence might be useful. But it needs to be genuine. If it’s just a Byzantine Americanist sect, it will not be taken seriously. In point of fact, that’s not Orthodoxy at all. You can tell by the effect, or lack thereof, that it has on the “faithful”.

This is vital because our children, the ones you have great faith in, are being taught by the culture with which we are all in bed, that traditional morality is optional, that feminism is valid, that religion is something to incorporate partly into ones life to the extent if fits modern sensibilities. We are teaching the children precisely the same thing by bringing the culture into the Church. I’m sure the parents of the baby boomers thought highly of their children too, and the parents of the “greatest generation”. Nonetheless, these children grew up to push the culture toward perdition.

This is why I see the whole American experiment ending in an economic and moral crisis which leads to some morphing of government, if not revolution. It really is just a matter of time. I can’t say the hierarchy, by and large, is not on the side of the corrupting influences of the world.

In this context, it is also vital to be optimistic. When all else fails and it becomes clear that the faithful, to the extent that they actually do remain faithful in more than name, cannot do much to change the escalating decadence, we have the example of Scripture and Christian history to assure us that eventually God will get tired of being mocked and act to right things. Americans always want to “make a difference”. If there’s something too be done that looks the least bit promising, this is not a bad impulse. But sometimes when things go quite awful, you just have to circle the wagons and let God straighten it out. Rearranging deck chairs on the Titanic in nice neat rows will not satisfy God. That just serves to deny the immanence of the collision with the iceberg. God made the world to operate in certain ways and America is paying the price for its disregard of these ways. It will pay a much stiffer price in the future – – and it doesn’t make one whit whether the majority likes it or not.

May God judge us and correct us as mercifully as effectiveness will allow.

Yes, candles are being lit, but they are on the nature of compassionate relief to the poor and marginalized, rather than systemic change. An ambulance or two (now and again) at the foot of the cliff, rather than a guardrail at the top.

Orthodoxy (other than the politically expedient kind) doesn’t seem to have pierced the skin (or heart) of those who would be in the position to make systemic change for the better of the people.

All sorts of people rail against the system and its corruption, but nothing changes….

Yes, the devil lies in what the EU considers human rights and its attitude toward religion and traditional mores.

Thanks for the insights. Seems like the ‘big negotiation’ occurs when deciding at what rate to accept EU currency and retire the local currency. If a country accepts the EU practices, the country’s economic possibilities seem pretty fixed for a couple decades at least depending on how equitably that process occurs.

In a ‘micro reflects the macro’– I can’t tell you how many times I’ve heard stories from people whose roots are in Greece and who were born there, own property there and so forth as adults. They come to the USA and live here for a while, travel back there for a month a year at least, eventually retire. They have to decide whether to live here or there, and owing to family they try there for a time. Then as the years pass by they start coming back here for longer, and longer and longer and eventually mostly stay here again. The reason: the Greek word for it is ‘Taxi’ , they really in the end appreciate how all the little things ‘just work like they are supposed to’ all the time, without the bribes and ‘stuff’. Acuna Matata– hassle free is the way to be.

So, let’s light a candle. What is a first step that would be acceptable in that culture, that would seem natural and organic in that culture, that in due course would bring an end to that way of treating people and ‘doing business’? Only people who’ve lived in it and have also an outside perspective are likely to be able to see the right way through.

(P.S. This is the classic ‘hero’ pattern. A person on the inside learns the ways of what works, and also sees that everyone is also somehow stuck. He/she leaves and gains altitude and perspective, then comes back offering a way for the stuck to gain.)

The EU has set the standard of Copenhagen and then does not follow them.

Question: What sort of democratic standard do we expect from a body that is made up of unelected officials?

From Wikipedia:

European Union

The European Union also employs conditionality with respect to enlargement, with membership conditional on candidate countries meeting the Copenhagen criteria and adopting the acquis communautaire.

The Copenhagen criteria are the rules that define whether a country is eligible to join the European Union. The criteria require that a state has the institutions to preserve democratic governance and human rights, has a functioning market economy, and accepts the obligations and intent of the EU. These membership criteria were laid down at the June 1993 European Council in Copenhagen, Denmark, from which they take their name. Excerpt from the Copenhagen Presidency conclusions[2]:
“ Membership requires that candidate country has achieved stability of institutions guaranteeing democracy, the rule of law, human rights, respect for and protection of minorities, the existence of a functioning market economy as well as the capacity to cope with competitive pressure and market forces within the Union. Membership presupposes the candidate’s ability to take on the obligations of membership including adherence to the aims of political, economic and monetary union.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copenhagen_criteria

The Community acquis[1] or acquis communautaire (English pronunciation: /ˈækiː kəˈmjuːnətɛər/, French: [aki kɔmynotɛr][2]), sometimes called the EU acquis, and often shortened to acquis,[2] is the accumulated legislation, legal acts, court decisions which constitute the body of European Union law. The term is French: acquis meaning “that which has been acquired”, and communautaire meaning “of the community”.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acquis_communautaire

No, Harry, I don’t think there is any fairness anywhere, most definitely not. I’ve seen a widow, at the bottom of the heap, throw out her houseplants because she couldn’t afford to water them. No fairness, no equity. As you say, those in control have no intention of making life fair or reasonable for the little people for whom God holds them accountable.

Harry, “EU Conditionality” goes something like this, “We understand and respect who you are, what you stand for, what you believe, but you have to think about what is best for the people of your nation and find the common denominator with the 21st Century, what it means to be truly free, to be in the EU. Do you want to be truly free, or do you want to keep your people isolated, unemployed, uncivilized?”

Something like this …

Now we are getting somewhere. And why are the salaries not enough to accomplish the employment task honorably? Because the people who set the salaries generally sit at the top of a chain of government employees each of whom lower down pays a part of their ‘attention/bribes’ up the power chain into the pocket of the person/people who ensure their jobs.

The thing is, could you address the issue of fairness? ‘A little attention’ varies depending on who you are and who likes whom. This deepens the corruption. The rules are not seen to apply to those who make them, conforming to the law is a sign of being lower on the food chain. It is exactly the opposite of what the gospel calls for— and has a scary echo in what we see in clericalist churches like the RCC and some of the Orthodox.

Other than institutional corruption, and a major part of why those who visit here choose not to return there, it’s a non-issue.

Scott – while not denying our blindspots or our sins, I’d like to suggest that the next generation is full of wonderful kids. Some of them are mine… more are someone else’s. I think if you can’t see that… we’re toast. But to the extent that they have problems, you and I are directly the cause.

If you really believe the pendulum never swings, then do you believe every forecast and analysis… especially only yours? Like the forecast when I was in college… the absolute scientific certainty that we would run out of oil by the mid 1980’s ? Trends almost always go to an extreme and then reverse. Almost always. Even the trends you seem to be forecasting will do the same.

FWIW, renewal will come not because it is automatic, but because enough people rise up to do something about it and are willing to take the heat. If you’re not that sort of person, then as TR said, you really aren’t entitled to throw mud on those who a least put themselves in the ring. You can… we all do of course… but it rings hollow in some respect.

Say what you will… the reason the “other side” is winning the day is because they ARE willing to put themselves in the ring. They love the others they represent more than you love to stand up for others who think as you do in this process, and until that changes, they will win the day. If today christianity is weak, it isn’t because of we have too much love, but because we have too little for others and too much for ourselves. But just think how all it took was 12 nice Jewish boys from Palestine to crack the Roman Empire – something so unthinkable in its day. So renewal can come in ways you cannot expect. Don’t you think God loves the world more than this? Renewal will come… maybe not in my lifetime… my time is increasingly short, but perhaps in yours if you’re willing to step into it. What is your plan ? Find the king of your choice? Move to the moon? or work with what we have here? We need you man… step up and take the heat. You have to take the first step. Maybe not now, but tomorrow or the next day. We need you – even in the smallest way. If you’re already doing something.. fine, forgive me. Thank you for your efforts.