Comments on: Archbishop Hilarion responds to U.S. State Dept. report on religious freedom http://www.aoiusa.org/blog/2009/12/archbishop-hilarion-responds-to-u-s-state-dept-report-on-religious-freedom/?utm_source=rss&utm_medium=rss&utm_campaign=archbishop-hilarion-responds-to-u-s-state-dept-report-on-religious-freedom American Orthodox Institute Wed, 08 Sep 2010 06:44:36 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.0.1 By: Michael Bauman http://www.aoiusa.org/blog/2009/12/archbishop-hilarion-responds-to-u-s-state-dept-report-on-religious-freedom/comment-page-1/#comment-7766 Michael Bauman Wed, 09 Dec 2009 04:58:14 +0000 http://www.aoiusa.org/blog/?p=4950#comment-7766 I will not defend sinfullness. You did not address any of my questions, just used events in history in a manner that is simply not pertinent to anything in my post. I will not defend sinfullness. You did not address any of my questions, just used events in history in a manner that is simply not pertinent to anything in my post.

]]> By: cynthia curran http://www.aoiusa.org/blog/2009/12/archbishop-hilarion-responds-to-u-s-state-dept-report-on-religious-freedom/comment-page-1/#comment-7762 cynthia curran Wed, 09 Dec 2009 02:13:19 +0000 http://www.aoiusa.org/blog/?p=4950#comment-7762 Well, a lot of Orthodox don't like Protestants either. Case in point, when I hear Orthodox talk about either Roman Catholics or Protestants they will bring up the negatives of those groups or accuse Protestants and Roman Catholics of wanting a theology like the emperor Justinian but not the faults of Orthodox Civilzations like the Byzantines or the Russian Empire. Justinian putting the Manicheans to death and the montanists killed themselves instead of having Justinian put them to death. This is record in the ancient sources. Granted, Justinian lived in the 6th century and thought that some religious thought was too dangerious for a christian empire. Also, the worst by the Byzantine empire was putting to death for hersay the Paulicians. The Paulicans were a Gnostic group. Lots of Paulicians were put to death in the 9th century, according to John Julius Norwich in Byzantium: The Apogee. Granted, from the 9th century on, the orthodox were better than the Roman Catholic West and the eary Protesants. And the Russian Empire gave Roman Catholics, Protestants, and Jews second class status. So, Roman Catholics and Protestants are not the only enemy of religious freedom in the history of christan thought. Well, a lot of Orthodox don’t like Protestants either. Case in point, when I hear Orthodox talk about either Roman Catholics or Protestants they will bring up the negatives of those groups or accuse Protestants and Roman Catholics of wanting a theology like the emperor Justinian but not the faults of Orthodox Civilzations like the Byzantines or the Russian Empire. Justinian putting the Manicheans to death and the montanists killed themselves instead of having Justinian put them to death. This is record in the ancient sources. Granted, Justinian lived in the 6th century and thought that some religious thought was too dangerious for a christian empire. Also, the worst by the Byzantine empire was putting to death for hersay the Paulicians. The Paulicans were a Gnostic group. Lots of Paulicians were put to death in the 9th century, according to John Julius Norwich in Byzantium: The Apogee. Granted, from the 9th century on, the orthodox were better than the Roman Catholic West and the eary Protesants. And the Russian Empire gave Roman Catholics, Protestants, and Jews second class status. So, Roman Catholics and Protestants are not the only enemy of religious freedom in the history of christan thought.

]]> By: Michael Bauman http://www.aoiusa.org/blog/2009/12/archbishop-hilarion-responds-to-u-s-state-dept-report-on-religious-freedom/comment-page-1/#comment-7754 Michael Bauman Tue, 08 Dec 2009 15:29:49 +0000 http://www.aoiusa.org/blog/?p=4950#comment-7754 #1. I have known a few Protestant missonaries to Russia from the early days. They all thought Russia was a heathen country. They had no idea the depth and nature of Russia's Christian heritage-even the Protestant one. Ultimately that means they did not respect the people or what they had gone through. It is the same old Protestant distain for culture, community and people that destroys rather than saves. #2. Not all of the 'missionaries' have an interest in saving souls, they are con artists simply there to make money. Bishop Hilarion alludes to that reality. Should they not be regulated? <strong>Questions:</strong> What is religious freedom? What is there about Russian history and culture that leads one to expect a Protestant style, secular egalitarianism as we have in the U.S? Is our model of 'religious freedom' really better? If so, how and why? IMO, we all have religious freedom regardless of what the state does or does not do. What we don't have is freedom from the consequences of our faith if the government is oppressive. Personally, I don't think that is necessarily a bad thing. Religious freedom as taught in the west denies community, faith and culture in any context other than the individual. That means it is antithetical to any faith that acutally builds community and requires obedience, e.g, the Church. Religious freedom enshrined in law and inforced by the state all to easily becomes a tool that requires traditional Christianity to deny our historic self-understanding and the revelation with which we have been entrusted. If relgious education, for instance, is truly voluntary and available to all regardless of one's faith, what is wrong with that. I suspect that the state department proponents of religious freedom don't like that fact that only traditional faiths are represented. They want to demand that Satanism and all the other 'faiths' possible to invent from our fallen and diseased imaginations be taught to everyone, or no body gets to learn about theirs. #1. I have known a few Protestant missonaries to Russia from the early days. They all thought Russia was a heathen country. They had no idea the depth and nature of Russia’s Christian heritage-even the Protestant one. Ultimately that means they did not respect the people or what they had gone through. It is the same old Protestant distain for culture, community and people that destroys rather than saves.

#2. Not all of the ‘missionaries’ have an interest in saving souls, they are con artists simply there to make money. Bishop Hilarion alludes to that reality. Should they not be regulated?

Questions: What is religious freedom? What is there about Russian history and culture that leads one to expect a Protestant style, secular egalitarianism as we have in the U.S? Is our model of ‘religious freedom’ really better? If so, how and why?

IMO, we all have religious freedom regardless of what the state does or does not do. What we don’t have is freedom from the consequences of our faith if the government is oppressive. Personally, I don’t think that is necessarily a bad thing.

Religious freedom as taught in the west denies community, faith and culture in any context other than the individual. That means it is antithetical to any faith that acutally builds community and requires obedience, e.g, the Church.

Religious freedom enshrined in law and inforced by the state all to easily becomes a tool that requires traditional Christianity to deny our historic self-understanding and the revelation with which we have been entrusted.

If relgious education, for instance, is truly voluntary and available to all regardless of one’s faith, what is wrong with that. I suspect that the state department proponents of religious freedom don’t like that fact that only traditional faiths are represented. They want to demand that Satanism and all the other ‘faiths’ possible to invent from our fallen and diseased imaginations be taught to everyone, or no body gets to learn about theirs.

]]> By: Fr. Johannes Jacobse http://www.aoiusa.org/blog/2009/12/archbishop-hilarion-responds-to-u-s-state-dept-report-on-religious-freedom/comment-page-1/#comment-7746 Fr. Johannes Jacobse Mon, 07 Dec 2009 20:45:16 +0000 http://www.aoiusa.org/blog/?p=4950#comment-7746 Yes. The only absolute the moral relativist holds to is that there are no absolutes. Yes. The only absolute the moral relativist holds to is that there are no absolutes.

]]> By: Dean Calvert http://www.aoiusa.org/blog/2009/12/archbishop-hilarion-responds-to-u-s-state-dept-report-on-religious-freedom/comment-page-1/#comment-7738 Dean Calvert Mon, 07 Dec 2009 01:53:54 +0000 http://www.aoiusa.org/blog/?p=4950#comment-7738 Interesting. Was de Tocqueville a student of the Athenian democracy I wonder? Same thing happened there...during the Peloponnesian War...the Athenian Assembly bought off the masses by spending money on them...it bought their temporary support, but killed the treasury - eventually leading to the Spartan victory and dictatorship. However he came up with it...this is a very interesting, and accurate quote. Best Regards, Dean Interesting.

Was de Tocqueville a student of the Athenian democracy I wonder?

Same thing happened there…during the Peloponnesian War…the Athenian Assembly bought off the masses by spending money on them…it bought their temporary support, but killed the treasury – eventually leading to the Spartan victory and dictatorship.

However he came up with it…this is a very interesting, and accurate quote.

Best Regards,
Dean

]]> By: cynthia curran http://www.aoiusa.org/blog/2009/12/archbishop-hilarion-responds-to-u-s-state-dept-report-on-religious-freedom/comment-page-1/#comment-7722 cynthia curran Sun, 06 Dec 2009 00:34:22 +0000 http://www.aoiusa.org/blog/?p=4950#comment-7722 Well, I take the other side, granted Russia is not as bad as Turkey but I think limiting protestants from preaching is not going to help the situation in the long run. The Russian Church may believe that its protecting people from Protestant errors but it just might cause more people to not become christians or cause a lot of people in the United States to not become Orthodox since the Orthodox in Russia limited Religious Freedom. Think if Protestants in the United States did the same think to Roman Catholics or Orthodox, I bet most people here would be opposed. Well, I take the other side, granted Russia is not as bad as Turkey but I think limiting protestants from preaching is not going to help the situation in the long run. The Russian Church may believe that its protecting people from Protestant errors but it just might cause more people to not become christians or cause a lot of people in the United States to not become Orthodox since the Orthodox in Russia limited Religious Freedom. Think if Protestants in the United States did the same think to Roman Catholics or Orthodox, I bet most people here would be opposed.

]]> By: Michael Bauman http://www.aoiusa.org/blog/2009/12/archbishop-hilarion-responds-to-u-s-state-dept-report-on-religious-freedom/comment-page-1/#comment-7717 Michael Bauman Fri, 04 Dec 2009 19:58:10 +0000 http://www.aoiusa.org/blog/?p=4950#comment-7717 Again Nietzche comes to mind the :twisted: "transvaluation of all values :twisted: Again Nietzche comes to mind the :twisted: “transvaluation of all values :twisted:

]]> By: Nick Katich http://www.aoiusa.org/blog/2009/12/archbishop-hilarion-responds-to-u-s-state-dept-report-on-religious-freedom/comment-page-1/#comment-7716 Nick Katich Fri, 04 Dec 2009 19:15:08 +0000 http://www.aoiusa.org/blog/?p=4950#comment-7716 You are correct Isa: "The American Republic will endure until the day Congress discovers that it can bribe the public with the public's money." - Alexis de Tocqueville He also said: "Liberty cannot be established without morality, nor morality without faith." You are correct Isa: “The American Republic will endure until the day Congress discovers that it can bribe the public with the public’s money.” – Alexis de Tocqueville

He also said: “Liberty cannot be established without morality, nor morality without faith.”

]]> By: Isa Almisry http://www.aoiusa.org/blog/2009/12/archbishop-hilarion-responds-to-u-s-state-dept-report-on-religious-freedom/comment-page-1/#comment-7711 Isa Almisry Fri, 04 Dec 2009 18:47:23 +0000 http://www.aoiusa.org/blog/?p=4950#comment-7711 No, no. It does hold to a hiearchy of values: everything is subjected to "tolerance." Everything is tolorated except Truth and conviction. What is the fashion of today takes precedence over tried and true principles handed down through the generations (that's backwards, also bad. Tradition starts with my generation). Dostoevsky's protagonist in "Crime and Punishment" upbraids someone for eavesdropping on his recounting his crime. "Ho, ho! So listening to private conversations within listening distance is evil, but bashing the heads of old women is fine. With thinking like that, you should get on the next boat to America!" was the reply. It seems Russia has regained that wisdom and moral insight. IIRC, De Tocqueville also said that the republic would last until the Congress realized that it could bribe the Public with the Public's money. That day seems to have arrived. No, no. It does hold to a hiearchy of values: everything is subjected to “tolerance.” Everything is tolorated except Truth and conviction. What is the fashion of today takes precedence over tried and true principles handed down through the generations (that’s backwards, also bad. Tradition starts with my generation).

Dostoevsky’s protagonist in “Crime and Punishment” upbraids someone for eavesdropping on his recounting his crime. “Ho, ho! So listening to private conversations within listening distance is evil, but bashing the heads of old women is fine. With thinking like that, you should get on the next boat to America!” was the reply. It seems Russia has regained that wisdom and moral insight.

IIRC, De Tocqueville also said that the republic would last until the Congress realized that it could bribe the Public with the Public’s money. That day seems to have arrived.

]]> By: Nick Katich http://www.aoiusa.org/blog/2009/12/archbishop-hilarion-responds-to-u-s-state-dept-report-on-religious-freedom/comment-page-1/#comment-7710 Nick Katich Fri, 04 Dec 2009 16:22:24 +0000 http://www.aoiusa.org/blog/?p=4950#comment-7710 Michael: You are right. I may have inadvertently insulted genuine pagans where no offense was intended. I was thinking of the Slavic form of paganism, namely worship of "nature". I also agree that a certain level of nihlism is an apt description of the elite. But even nihlism tends to evolve (self-correct) into something new as the old is or is being obliterated. The elite are looking for a new religion to fill the void and they have found it in "environmentalism". There is a great distinction (which has escaped the thought processes in the EP) between stewardship of creation and worship of sticks and stones and ozone holes. Michael: You are right. I may have inadvertently insulted genuine pagans where no offense was intended. I was thinking of the Slavic form of paganism, namely worship of “nature”. I also agree that a certain level of nihlism is an apt description of the elite. But even nihlism tends to evolve (self-correct) into something new as the old is or is being obliterated. The elite are looking for a new religion to fill the void and they have found it in “environmentalism”. There is a great distinction (which has escaped the thought processes in the EP) between stewardship of creation and worship of sticks and stones and ozone holes.

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